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I can't seem to let go of The Edge

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Re: I can't seem to let go of The Edge

Postby aaawall91 » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:40 pm

Daddymike59 wrote:He was referring to AZ's O-line (as he bolded).

True , my bad


No worries, I agreed with you initially till I went back and read it. ;-)
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Re: I can't seem to let go of The Edge

Postby TheDiplomats » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:48 pm

Azrael wrote:
TheDiplomats wrote:I'm targeting Edge in the 2nd round in most of my drafts. He is being severely undervalued at the moment. Russ Grimm and Whisenhunt will make that offensive line so much better it isn't even funny. Edge did not suddenly start sucking...his offensive line held him back BIG time last year. I'd look for Edge to get around 1400 yards and 8-12 TDs this year...yes, I am drinking the Edge Koolaid as well.


Common misconception. Good coaches cannot make bad players good. Remember when Kansas City was going to fix their defense by just bringing aboard a good defensive coordinator a few years ago. That didn't work.

Houston went from 15th to 21st last year (because their line sucks) in rushing despite being under the tutelage of Gary Kubiak who was the former OC at Denver (they had a good offensive line).

Weren't the Vikings the No. 1 rushing team in the league several years that Dennis Green coached them (because they had a good offensive line). Yet he couldn't get AZ a ground game (because their line sucks).

Houston dropped in production because their leading rusher went from Dominic Davis to Ron Dayne. And that's not mentioning they had a multitude of injuries across the offensive line that caused Kubiak to have to dig into their reserves on an already awful offensive line. I think this year is when we will truly see that offensive line start to get a little bit better..but it wont drastically improve because their starting RBs are Ahman Green and Dayne.

The Kansas City argument is a good point, however, in my opinion..if there is any position that can be helped the most by a change of head coach and staff..it's the offensive line. Over time, I expect the Texans to become one of the best rushing teams in the league. I guess I was a bit too optimistic on how fast Whisenhunt and Grimm would make the offensive line better..but if you look towards the second half of last season, Edge strung together quite a few good games, even under Dennis Green and his coaching staff, showing that their is some life left in the offensive line.

I really don't expect Grimm and Whisenhunt to work miracles, but I do think that the Arizona offensive line will be noticeably better. They have many underachieving guys on that offensive line and I think the new coaching staff could really cause them to improve enough so that Edge could get his this year in Arizona. Oh yeah, and having an up and coming stud QB and one of the best WR tandems in the league definitely helps take pressure off of the AZ running game.
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Re: I can't seem to let go of The Edge

Postby Plindsey88 » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:12 pm

Azrael wrote:Common misconception. Good coaches cannot make bad players good. Remember when Kansas City was going to fix their defense by just bringing aboard a good defensive coordinator a few years ago. That didn't work.

Houston went from 15th to 21st last year (because their line sucks) in rushing despite being under the tutelage of Gary Kubiak who was the former OC at Denver (they had a good offensive line).

Weren't the Vikings the No. 1 rushing team in the league several years that Dennis Green coached them (because they had a good offensive line). Yet he couldn't get AZ a ground game (because their line sucks).


Which bad players are we talking about, here? Good coaching can't make bad players good, but it can do wonders for young players... Not to mention the fact that most of the line in Arizona is either new to the team or playing a different position than they played last year...

LT - Levi Brown is a rookie and a stud... Good coaching will do wonders for him...

LG - Reggie Wells is entering his 5th year... This kid has great feet, but was playing in his unnatural RT position protecting Matt Leinart's blind side in '06... His natural position is LG and moving him back there is a big upgrade to the line...

C - The likely starter is Al Johnson, who is entering his 4th season... He's a new addition, and a big improvement... He will not only benefit from the coaching, but should help with it...

RG - Deuce Lutui was a rookie last year, and didn't play too poorly... He's young and GOOD... He will benefit greatly from good coaching...

RT - Mike Gandy is the veteran of the group and a new addition to the Cardinals... He should be decent... Who knows if THIS guy will benefit much from the coaching... But he's not exactly a bad player, either...

In short, this is a whole new offensive line than anything we have seen in Arizona... It's not like Grimm is just coaching up the existing line... He has rebuilt it...

So take everything you know about the line in Arizona and throw it out the window... None of it holds true anymore...
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Re: I can't seem to let go of The Edge

Postby mattb47 » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:28 pm

Plindsey88 wrote:
Azrael wrote:Common misconception. Good coaches cannot make bad players good. Remember when Kansas City was going to fix their defense by just bringing aboard a good defensive coordinator a few years ago. That didn't work.

Houston went from 15th to 21st last year (because their line sucks) in rushing despite being under the tutelage of Gary Kubiak who was the former OC at Denver (they had a good offensive line).

Weren't the Vikings the No. 1 rushing team in the league several years that Dennis Green coached them (because they had a good offensive line). Yet he couldn't get AZ a ground game (because their line sucks).


Which bad players are we talking about, here? Good coaching can't make bad players good, but it can do wonders for young players... Not to mention the fact that most of the line in Arizona is either new to the team or playing a different position than they played last year...

LT - Levi Brown is a rookie and a stud... Good coaching will do wonders for him...

LG - Reggie Wells is entering his 5th year... This kid has great feet, but was playing in his unnatural RT position protecting Matt Leinart's blind side in '06... His natural position is LG and moving him back there is a big upgrade to the line...

C - The likely starter is Al Johnson, who is entering his 4th season... He's a new addition, and a big improvement... He will not only benefit from the coaching, but should help with it...

RG - Deuce Lutui was a rookie last year, and didn't play too poorly... He's young and GOOD... He will benefit greatly from good coaching...

RT - Mike Gandy is the veteran of the group and a new addition to the Cardinals... He should be decent... Who knows if THIS guy will benefit much from the coaching... But he's not exactly a bad player, either...

In short, this is a whole new offensive line than anything we have seen in Arizona... It's not like Grimm is just coaching up the existing line... He has rebuilt it...

So take everything you know about the line in Arizona and throw it out the window... None of it holds true anymore...


Well, word is that Brown is playing RT to cover Leinart's blind side but other than that I agree 100%. That O-Line will likely surprise some people this year.
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Re: I can't seem to let go of The Edge

Postby Plindsey88 » Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:49 pm

mattb47 wrote:
Plindsey88 wrote:
Azrael wrote:Common misconception. Good coaches cannot make bad players good. Remember when Kansas City was going to fix their defense by just bringing aboard a good defensive coordinator a few years ago. That didn't work.

Houston went from 15th to 21st last year (because their line sucks) in rushing despite being under the tutelage of Gary Kubiak who was the former OC at Denver (they had a good offensive line).

Weren't the Vikings the No. 1 rushing team in the league several years that Dennis Green coached them (because they had a good offensive line). Yet he couldn't get AZ a ground game (because their line sucks).


Which bad players are we talking about, here? Good coaching can't make bad players good, but it can do wonders for young players... Not to mention the fact that most of the line in Arizona is either new to the team or playing a different position than they played last year...

LT - Levi Brown is a rookie and a stud... Good coaching will do wonders for him...

LG - Reggie Wells is entering his 5th year... This kid has great feet, but was playing in his unnatural RT position protecting Matt Leinart's blind side in '06... His natural position is LG and moving him back there is a big upgrade to the line...

C - The likely starter is Al Johnson, who is entering his 4th season... He's a new addition, and a big improvement... He will not only benefit from the coaching, but should help with it...

RG - Deuce Lutui was a rookie last year, and didn't play too poorly... He's young and GOOD... He will benefit greatly from good coaching...

RT - Mike Gandy is the veteran of the group and a new addition to the Cardinals... He should be decent... Who knows if THIS guy will benefit much from the coaching... But he's not exactly a bad player, either...

In short, this is a whole new offensive line than anything we have seen in Arizona... It's not like Grimm is just coaching up the existing line... He has rebuilt it...

So take everything you know about the line in Arizona and throw it out the window... None of it holds true anymore...


Well, word is that Brown is playing RT to cover Leinart's blind side but other than that I agree 100%. That O-Line will likely surprise some people this year.



I have heard that is a possibility, too... But, in the end, I don't see them turning over total protection of their franchise quarterback to a rookie... I think Gandy will be watching his blind side - at least this season... No doubt Brown will eventually move to the RT position, but I think they'll give him a year to develop first - not only because they want a veteran watching Leinart's back, but also because Left Tackle is Brown's natural position, and I don't think they'll want to overload him... Just a hunch...

In any case, all the talk about how bad the line is in Arizona is poppy-cock... No one has seen the line in Arizona play yet... It's a whole new creature...
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Re: I can't seem to let go of The Edge

Postby Azrael » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:19 am

Plindsey88 wrote:Which bad players are we talking about, here? Good coaching can't make bad players good, but it can do wonders for young players... Not to mention the fact that most of the line in Arizona is either new to the team or playing a different position than they played last year...

LT - Levi Brown is a rookie and a stud... Good coaching will do wonders for him...

LG - Reggie Wells is entering his 5th year... This kid has great feet, but was playing in his unnatural RT position protecting Matt Leinart's blind side in '06... His natural position is LG and moving him back there is a big upgrade to the line...

C - The likely starter is Al Johnson, who is entering his 4th season... He's a new addition, and a big improvement... He will not only benefit from the coaching, but should help with it...

RG - Deuce Lutui was a rookie last year, and didn't play too poorly... He's young and GOOD... He will benefit greatly from good coaching...

RT - Mike Gandy is the veteran of the group and a new addition to the Cardinals... He should be decent... Who knows if THIS guy will benefit much from the coaching... But he's not exactly a bad player, either...

In short, this is a whole new offensive line than anything we have seen in Arizona... It's not like Grimm is just coaching up the existing line... He has rebuilt it...

So take everything you know about the line in Arizona and throw it out the window... None of it holds true anymore...


Really I think you are trying to talk this line up to something it is not.

You've got a rookie in Brown, who may be good but is still a rookie. You've got 2 new additions in Al Johnson (who was a backup in Dallas last year) and Mike Gandy (not exactly a stalwart on the Buffalo O-line). You've got Reggie Wells who is switching positions again and a 2nd year player in Lutui. This doesn't exactly sound like a recipe for success for me this year. I'm just not buying the "good coaching will do wonders" argument.

You got a rookie, 2nd year guys, 2 new guys, and another switching positions. This is not going to be an easy job.

In Pittsburgh these guys had Hartings, Faneca, Smith, and Simmons to work with who all had played multiple years together. Starks had also been a starter for 2 years.
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Re: I can't seem to let go of The Edge

Postby Daddymike59 » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:02 pm

Seems to be getting just a little off track here. I think Edge is and was a product of the system in Indy, just as we may find Brandon Stokley was. He ( EDGE ) is still a good productive back, but until Leinart comes of age, he is just another starting rb.. Fantasy Speaking. I believe that within the next 2 years Edgerrin James will be back to producing the numbers, or close to them, that he was in Indianapolis.

This is from FFtoolbox:

2007 Outlook: Gamble (high risk)

James' arrival to the Valley of the Sun was supposed to propel the Cardinal's young offense into the playoffs. Instead James had his worst season as a pro (1,159 yards 6 touchdowns), and disappointed many fantasy owners, displaying just how poor Arizona's offensive line was in 2006. James should significantly improve his numbers from last season with the additions of Levi Brown, Mike Gandy, and Al Johnson to the offensive line. Coach Ken Whisenhunt is emphasizing a run first offense, so James will see plenty of carries as the feature back for Arizona. Edgerrin James will be a huge gamble on draft day for fantasy owners in 2007; but if he slides far enough, he is worth the risk because he could break out behind the Cardinals rebuilt offensive line.

http://www.fftoolbox.com/profiles/profi ... er_id=3868

This is what Footballguys has to say:
Outlook
James may be undervalued heading into the 2007 season. If healthy he is a lock to get over 300 carries and he's proven that he can handle a heavy workload. With the Cardinals intent on running the ball and implementing more of a ball control offense, James should continue to see the ball a ton. Bringing in a coach that specializes in emphasizing the run can only help his cause. James may still struggle to see the end zone, as points are harder to come by in Arizona than Indianapolis. James currently is getting picked around the #20 running back off the board in early drafts. He should gain more yards and see some additional goal line opportunities this year, and running backs with his workload should be taken well before his current ADP.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why he is undervalued according to one of our writers (based on an ADP of 25, RB 18 on June 30 --- go here for the complete article)


http://subscribers.footballguys.com/pla ... Ed00-1.php






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