maddog60 wrote:I know nothing about baseball players values, but I just think Mookie would be above collusion.
thats the first thing i thought. mookie doesnt strike me as dishonest in the least bit. even though it may be a horrible trade for the other guy, i would give him the benefit of the doubt. i dont know the other guy, so i cant attest for him, but it takes 2 people for it to be collusion, so in my mind...believeing what i do about mookie, i would not veto it.
maddog60 wrote:I know nothing about baseball players values, but I just think Mookie would be above collusion.
thats the first thing i thought. mookie doesnt strike me as dishonest in the least bit. even though it may be a horrible trade for the other guy, i would give him the benefit of the doubt. i dont know the other guy, so i cant attest for him, but it takes 2 people for it to be collusion, so in my mind...believeing what i do about mookie, i would not veto it.
Thing is though, it doesn't necessarily take 2 people for it to be collusion in a way. If kent really wanted the dark side to win, he may have just proposed that trade out of the clear blue knowing that it would hurt his team.
bobbing_headz wrote:While I understand that name recognition should not be too heavily weighted you can't ignore it at all. With name recognition comes a track record of success. Take Sheff for example. You coulda looked at his horrible April and said one of two things: A) I'll keep him because he's Sheff and Sheff's career numbers tell me he's better than this or B) I'll unload him because his numbers are declining. I think most of you know which was the better choice.
As for the example of Andruw Jones, Sexson, etc. it's an interesting case but not completely true. Sure some owners draft these guys recognizing the name and forgetting the bad avg but these guys are drafted for a reason, because they provide 3 cat power production. When you draft them you know the avg is gonna hurt you. Maybe you took a lot of high avg, low power guys and need some extra power. Not every guy you draft is a bona fide 5 cat guy. For most players there are at least one, often times two or even three categories that are not gonna be the best. Seems silly to me. Average is just another category along with all the rest.
Of course there is that aspect of projecting what the player will do for the rest of the season, which completely ignores the numbers he's already put up (and should). Yet still, if one justifies this trade because one owner thought that Renteria, Cust and Marshall would outplay Sizemore, Hamels and Harris then the only thing we're doing is insulting the owners baseball intelligence. I see from all this arguing of course that this is one of those issues where there will never be unanimous support for either side. I could see this argument go on for ever. Really it's just one opinion vs. another. Neither is right or wrong so here's me opinion: While I truly despise saying this, trades like this should be vetoed to maintain league competitiveness.
Sheff's a tough one to debate. I wouldn't have blamed anyone for either being very high, or very low on him this year. Wrist injury, not in the Yankees lineup anymore, in a big pitcher's park now, etc. A lot of factors in play on that one, so he was tough for me to project this year. Turns out he's doing much better than I thought he would. I've been wrong before, and I'll be wrong again. Happens when you make projections. No one nails them all.
I'd love to get a bit detailed about just how much harm the low average guys like Dunn hurt one's team, but I'd probably bore everyone to death. Suffice it to say that what you gain pointwise in homers and rbi, you lose in average. Granted, I'm also talking roto leagues, as H2H baseball leagues just have more luck involved than I prefer. Not that there's anything wrong with H2H baseball leagues or people that like them, just that I prefer roto.
The main point I wanted to comment on is underlined. Here's a pop quiz for you. Two pitchers:
Who are they? I'll tell you below, so no need to go look it up or anything.
Pitcher A went in rounds 2 or 3 of most leagues, while Pitcher B wasn't drafted in many leagues at all. In fact, I got laughed at for taking Pitcher B before the season started for $1 in a 23 man roster, $250 keeper auction league. I could pull up tons of guys to use as Player B, but I'm using him simply because I personally got laughed at for that pick. Reminds me I need to bump that comment back up now, as a buck is a heck of a deal for that production. Darn shame I cut him when we went on the DL and is on someone else's roster now, not to mention a keeper next year for only $2. Ah well.
Anyway, who would have thought that Orlando Hernandez (and there are people out there going - "Who?") would outduel Roy Halladay for the first half? Sounds insane to even consider it, right? It's Roy Halladay for crying out loud! I didn't think Hernandez would outduel Halladay for the first half either, but that doesn't mean someone out there didn't think it was possible. Turns out those few people were right, and the majority (which includes me) were wrong. So... Where exactly is anyone showing any lack of baseball intelligence? Is it crazy to believe Hamels will be limited? No, it's pretty common with up and coming stud pitchers on teams that won't make the playoffs. Lack of innings = lack of production = lack of value. Is it unintelligent to think Renteria will outproduce Harris from here on out? Not at all and I'd be shocked if anyone in this thread thnks otherwise. Is it unintellgent to believe Cust will produce more home runs and rbi than Sizemore, while sacrificing the steals and runs in the process (Sizemore will have more steals and runs - I don't doubt that at all). Nope, it's a wash, a classic power for steals, so nothing unintellgent there either. So I disagree with the statement I underlined, and of course I'm only speaking of my own thoughts/projections on these guys, but all is good. I know and acknowledge "perceived" value in the names involved, but I still hold to the fact that the stats themselves are what wins leagues. I've never won (or lost) a league due to my players having the most popular, respected, or "perceived name value". I've either won with the stats, or lost because I didn't have the stats. Simple as that.
I am the Reaper of Men, The Chaser of Souls, The Weaver of Nightmares, I am The Heart of Darkness. I now, and ever will be, The Purity of Evil.
I am totally with you that you can't go by just name, i mean Hallday is getting rocked this year and my boy James Shields has looked dominant and Shields was not drafted in most leagues, nor was Brendan Harris. The one thing about name is consisitency. Sizemore consistantly produces and will end up a top player in the end of the year. Cole Hamels is a stud young pitcher that everyone knows. Cust has produced, but he has to come down to earth doesn't he? Do you think a 28 year old career minor leaguer to this point can keep this pace up? For me it came down to sizemore/hamels for marshall/cust side of it. I never say to veto something unless there is collusion and i most likely would not have vetoed this, but you have to see where someone would be weary. I mean Hamels is god on the Dark Side . I think it was a very bad trade, but if Kent really believes that his team will benefit than i say its fine.I believe we have some people with strong character here and i dont think they would collude. Just my 2.
lmcjaho wrote:I think the truly disturbing thing about all this is you guys are mucking up my Fantasy Football Cafe with a 5 page thread about Baseball...
I am also a:
maddog60 wrote:I know nothing about baseball players values, but I just think Mookie would be above collusion.
With that said, I'm with Mad and as usual think he made great points about name recognition.
lmcjaho wrote:I think the truly disturbing thing about all this is you guys are mucking up my Fantasy Football Cafe with a 5 page thread about Baseball...
The veto thing has been debated ad nauseum on both the baseball and football sides and the bottom line always seems to be - if it's not collusion then it's not worthy of veto. It's a lopsided trade, but you can NOT accuse Mookie and Kent of colluding simply because the numbers are not equal.
There's been some discussion about name recognition in this thread. Let's look at two other names - Mookie and Kent. In all your experience with either guy, has either one ever been guilty of collusion? Have they ever been even accused of it?
That should be the name recognition argument right there.
I think if this trade gets vetoed you're going to have some seriously hurt feelings in this league, and it's simply not worth it. Chalk it up to a disproportionate deal and move on.
Madison wrote:Anyway, who would have thought that Orlando Hernandez (and there are people out there going - "Who?") would outduel Roy Halladay for the first half? Sounds insane to even consider it, right? It's Roy Halladay for crying out loud! I didn't think Hernandez would outduel Halladay for the first half either, but that doesn't mean someone out there didn't think it was possible. Turns out those few people were right, and the majority (which includes me) were wrong. So... Where exactly is anyone showing any lack of baseball intelligence? Is it crazy to believe Hamels will be limited? No, it's pretty common with up and coming stud pitchers on teams that won't make the playoffs. Lack of innings = lack of production = lack of value. Is it unintelligent to think Renteria will outproduce Harris from here on out? Not at all and I'd be shocked if anyone in this thread thnks otherwise. Is it unintellgent to believe Cust will produce more home runs and rbi than Sizemore, while sacrificing the steals and runs in the process (Sizemore will have more steals and runs - I don't doubt that at all). Nope, it's a wash, a classic power for steals, so nothing unintellgent there either. So I disagree with the statement I underlined, and of course I'm only speaking of my own thoughts/projections on these guys, but all is good. I know and acknowledge "perceived" value in the names involved, but I still hold to the fact that the stats themselves are what wins leagues. I've never won (or lost) a league due to my players having the most popular, respected, or "perceived name value". I've either won with the stats, or lost because I didn't have the stats. Simple as that.
Ok, I admit that you're probably right. As I always say, trades in any league shouldn't be vetoed because nobody can truly project how players will perform after. If everybody in the league thinks it's unfair but the guy who does the trade then that's fine. I was merely basing what I said on personal opinion and projections.
deerayfan072 wrote: Sizemore consistantly produces and will end up a top player in the end of the year. Cole Hamels is a stud young pitcher that everyone knows. Cust has produced, but he has to come down to earth doesn't he? Do you think a 28 year old career minor leaguer to this point can keep this pace up? For me it came down to sizemore/hamels for marshall/cust side of it.
I mean Hamels is god on the Dark Side .
I agree. Sizemore is and will be a top producer for many years to come. He's not a big power threat for the second half though. At best, he will hit 15 more homers, and since he hits leadoff, that means not a lot of rbi either. As to Cust, he doesn't have to keep the pace up to out homer/rbi Sizemore. He matched Sizemore's homers in almost half the at bats, so yes, even if he falls off the pace (which I agree he probably will), he will still outproduce Sizemore in the power department. Tack on Oakland's knack for getting really hot in the second half (an enigma I've never understood), and there's a pretty nice ceiling out there for Cust if he were to catch fire or just continue to produce at the current rate.
As to Hamels, yeah, the hype machine is in full force on the Darkside . The kid is certainly a future stud, but note I said "future" stud. I don't consider him a stud just yet. He's shown flashes of what he can do, but I expect next year or the year after for him to really break through and solidify the "stud" tag. Very likely it will be next year. Hopefully he won't turn into another Wood/Prior/Harden type of mess. Talk about kill the hype machine.
I am the Reaper of Men, The Chaser of Souls, The Weaver of Nightmares, I am The Heart of Darkness. I now, and ever will be, The Purity of Evil.
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