Fantasy Football Cafe Forum

by **lmcjaho** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:41 pm

joelamosobadiah wrote:Please if you can, post it here. I would be genuinely interested to see it as well. I have heard much of my information from extremely experienced and reliable sources, but I would still like to see what information you have.

Okay joel, as requested...

For a couple of years now I have been browsing this site called The Box o' Truth, and I have linked to it here in response to gun-related threads quite a few times as well. Essentially the site is done by a guy who goes by the name of Old_Painless, who is a Life and Patron Member of the National Rifle Association. He holds certification as a Pistol Instructor, Rifle Instructor, Shotgun Instructor, Personal Firearms Defense Instructor, and Home Firearms Safety Instructor. He has attended classes at Thunder Ranch and taken the Defensive Handgun I, Defensive Handgun II, and Urban Rifle courses. As he is retired now, he has time on his hands. Since he likes shooting stuff (his motto is "Shooting stuff is fun") he decided to build the Box o' Truth to try and debunk some myths about firearms and penetration of various ammo and gun types...

He does so by shooting the box and then recording the penetration of the ammo. In later tests he also uses water jugs to test the penetration on a human body (he has some calculations that show how much X number of inches of water is equivalent to Y number of inches on the average human body - similar to ballistic gel but cheaper essentially).

For anyone considering a gun for home defense I HIGHLY recommend that you take a look at the site, specifically the following links (but I would read them all, or at least browse, because they're all interesting):

Original Box o' Truth - pistols and rifles
Box o' Truth plus water jug - see how "safe" a shotgun is if you miss inside your house
Shotguns - various shot loads vs the Box

Now, I hope those of you seriously considering a gun for home defense check all the links, but I know many people are lazy so I will quote the "Lessons Learned" from the last link in response to the various posts in this thread about shotguns...

Box 'O Truth Shotgun Test wrote:Lessons learned:
1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards.

So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe.

The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads.

The slug penetrated all 12 boards.

2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about.
You can very easily miss with a shotgun. You must aim to hit your target.

3. The slugs were "bad" penetrators. By that, I mean that they will penetrate several interior walls. If you have loved ones in your home, consider this as you select your home defense weapon.

4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.

Frankly, I was surprised that the shotgun did not penetrate more than it did. I had been led to believe that they penetrated more than a .223 rifle or a 9mm or .45 ACP. Such was not the case.

Amazing what you can learn by doing a little testing.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com (a forum for gun enthusiasts) sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

by **oakraid706** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 12:05 am

If he would have stayed and fought, it doesn't seem like much of a contest: baseball bat vs screwdriver. You'd get nailed before you could get the screwdriver in.

by **deerayfan072** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:51 am

Of course you have to aim, i never said you didn't but it is easier to do that with a shotgun than a handgun. Maybe no one lost there bowls while they were standing next to him outside while he was doing an experiment, but at night if u are breaking into a house, i am sorry the sound of a shitgun being racked will scare the crap out of you.It is a distanct sound of someone having a gun and they will leave most likely. Couldnt agree more about using a bigger load, one of the first thing you learn when using guns is that you only draw a weapon if u plan on using it, and you only use it if u plan on making it leathal. You aim for center mass everytime.

by **beanoX3** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:05 am

Just make a high fidelity recording of a tank sabot round being loaded, and then blast it out of your sound system if you think a burglar is in your house. Should make him jump at least, and as a bonus, will wake up your entire neighborhood who will alert the police.

;-D

by **deerayfan072** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:11 am

beanoX3 wrote:Just make a high fidelity recording of a tank sabot round being loaded, and then blast it out of your sound system if you think a burglar is in your house. Should make him jump at least, and as a bonus, will wake up your entire neighborhood who will alert the police.

by **knapplc** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 11:27 am

This is a tough one. lmcjaho has sent me the link to that website before and I’ve read through some stuff, and besides being pretty interesting I think it’s pretty full of factual information. I won’t dispute the science of what is being said at all – first because it sounds right to me, second because I would have no way of proving or disproving it.

The only thing I would say as a caveat to the “don’t use a shotgun for home defense” theory is this – I tend to think a lot of people are not all that brave. Most of us are not Rambo, and most of us would drop and scream like little girls if we were shot by anything more serious than a pellet gun. I think whether you shoot an intruder with a shotgun, a .38, a 44 Magnum or a bazooka, the majority of those guys (I would say nearly all of them) will drop and scream and cry and bleed, and aside from getting their weapon away from them (assuming they haven’t already dropped it) the biggest job remaining would be to sop up their blood and tears while waiting for the cops. That includes getting shot by just about any projectile, including even a small portion of a birdshot load from a 12-gauge.

People are just not brave. For most people even the sound of the gunshot (whatever gun you use) would be debilitating, and combined with the impact of whatever projectile we’re struck with, we’re going to go straight into Panic Mode.

The first problem is that we just don’t get shot that often. We’re not used to it. If we were, we’d know the difference between a near-fatal hit by a large-caliber bullet and a relatively minor wound caused by a shotgun. The next problem is that most of us aren’t good shots anyway, so when you factor in the first problem (getting wounded), returning fire accurately and effectively isn’t very easy, if not downright impossible.

What that means to me is that, all things considered, just about any gun you have in your house and which you fire at the bad guy is going to get the job done, assuming you’re not being attacked by a short list of people, who include: Green Berets (they’re used to getting shot at and they won’t flinch, probably even if shot), druggies – especially if they’re high, Chuck Norris. Of course you’re not likely to have a Home Invasion thrust on you by the Green Berets or Chuck, since they have bigger fish to fry, and if you shoot a guy hyped up on any number of drugs it may not matter what you shoot him with unless you hit him in the head because he’s going to come after you anyway (but will probably miss).

Finally, all bets are off, no matter what weapon you have, if you get shot first. The key is getting in the first shot, the first hit, and going on from there. If you get shot first then all the stuff I wrote about reaction and whatnot turns around and applies to you, and you’re in a world of hurt. So hopefully you shoot first, you hit first, and the chips fall from there where they may.

So then, if I’m shooting, and I’m shooting first, what do I want to shoot with? Personally, I want to shoot with something that’s going to hit what I’m aiming at, be somewhat forgiving of my aim, and will have enough of an impact to knock down/take out of the action the bad guy. For me, that’s a shotgun. A shotgun has a wider impact area (the spread of the load) compared to a single bullet, thus it has a higher chance of striking the target. In a situation where there may be a firefight, that’s my choice.