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That's My King!

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Re: That's My King!

Postby josebach » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:22 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
josebach wrote:Wouldn't the easiest solution be for YOU not to read them? Considering the mods have shown they're not going to lock these threads (which would be my first choice), I think by simply not reading them would be the easist way for you to avoid being offended. Surely it's easier than trying to convince everybody here to adhere to your standards, isn't it? That's just my .02 <--- the same as everyone else's ;-)


Correct me if I'm wrong here, but weren't you the fella who 'left' because of threads like this?


Well, there's no question this place was turning into frigging Sunday school around here, but that wasn't the real reason I left. The real reason was because I had it up to my ears with a couple posters and their judgemental and pretentious BS. Well, after discovering those same posters who I love so much also post over in baseball GT, I figured I had two choices... A) leave the cafe all together or B) become more tolerant and come back to football GT (which I like better than baseball GT anyway). Sorry to disappoint you. I know how much you were hoping I'd choose option A.

I find it interesting that the secular people are being painted as the bad guys here. "Just ignore it", they say. "Don't post in the thread", they say. The religious people here know this is a secular website, right? They know a lot of people aren't Christian here, right? They know that an outwardly religious thread will be met with debate and criticism, right? Well if that's the case, how can the non-religious be the bad guys when WE'RE NOT THE ONES BRINGING THIS STUFF UP? Whether you admit it or not, these religious threads are antagonistic towards non-believers and you know it. So we're the bad guys for playing along and you guys are morally superior? Surely I'm not the only one here to see this?

knapplc wrote:And nobody should have to tell anyone here these things, that's the kicker. Pretty much everyone taking part in this thread are adults, who should know how to conduct themselves better. But you put religion on the table and it seems common sense flies out the window.

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. He and I have gotten into numerous pissing matches over this stuff before and now all of a sudden he's above us? We should "know how to conduct ourselves"? Are you frigging kidding me? I'll say it again... surely I'm not the only one here to see this?



You don't want to see holes punched in your religion? THEN DON'T START THREADS TALKING ABOUT IT!!!

*edit* Sorry for getting my panties in a bunch. Omaha and I have a bit of history, ay Omaha? Oh, one last thing. It's implied that the secular people here don't treat religion with respect. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the reason we don't go around starting atheist and agnostic threads here is BECAUSE we have respect for the religious people here? Perhaps a little reciprocation is in order?
Last edited by josebach on Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: That's My King!

Postby Madison » Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:40 pm

josebach wrote:You don't want to see holes punched in your religion? THEN DON'T START THREADS TALKING ABOUT IT!!!


You do realize you're trying to tell people what they can and cannot discuss here, right? Why can't religion be discussed without those who don't care about it or disagree with it interfere?

That would be like saying: "Don't start a thread about the Cowboys because us Eagle fans will tell you where to stick it!!!!!"

Stupid, huh?

"Antagonized" doesn't play into this. No one is baiting you into reading and responding in those threads, no one is forcing you to do anything, and those threads are not put up to upset you. They are put up because someone wants to discuss the topic. No one thinks "Ooh! I'm gonna tick off Josebach and post this thread!!!". It has nothing to do with you, so why not show a little common courtesy and respect and allow those people who do wish to discuss it in peace?
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Re: That's My King!

Postby josebach » Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:39 pm

Madison wrote:
josebach wrote:You don't want to see holes punched in your religion? THEN DON'T START THREADS TALKING ABOUT IT!!!


You do realize you're trying to tell people what they can and cannot discuss here, right? Why can't religion be discussed without those who don't care about it or disagree with it interfere?


If I'm not mistaken it was the religious people (knapplc) telling the secular people where and where not to post. I didn't for one second tell anyone what they could and couldn't discuss. All I said was that if you get offended by having a legitimate discussion about religion, you shouldn't partake in those threads. If you look back, I'm not the one who claimed to be offended. My desire to have the threads locked was not to save myself from being offended but rather to stop any more bad blood from being created.

Madison wrote:That would be like saying: "Don't start a thread about the Cowboys because us Eagle fans will tell you where to stick it!!!!!"

Stupid, huh?

No, it's like starting a Cowboys thread and telling Eagle fans they're not allowed to post there. That's what's happening here.

Madison wrote:"Antagonized" doesn't play into this.

If I started an atheism thread pointing out all of the fallacies in religious doctrine would you as a Christian find it antagonistic? What if I told you to just ignore it and show the atheists here a little common courtesy?

Madison wrote:No one is baiting you into reading and responding in those threads, no one is forcing you to do anything, and those threads are not put up to upset you. They are put up because someone wants to discuss the topic. No one thinks "Ooh! I'm gonna tick off Josebach and post this thread!!!". It has nothing to do with you, so why not show a little common courtesy and respect and allow those people who do wish to discuss it in peace?

So let me get this straight. You think the people that start religious thread here want to discuss their religion in peace? It sounds to me like you're telling us that we shouldn't post in Christian threads here unless they're reaffirming posts. Is that what you're saying?
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Re: That's My King!

Postby Madison » Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:55 pm

josebach wrote:If I'm not mistaken it was the religious people (knapplc) telling the secular people where and where not to post. I didn't for one second tell anyone what they could and couldn't discuss. All I said was that if you get offended by having a legitimate discussion about religion, you shouldn't partake in those threads. If you look back, I'm not the one who claimed to be offended.


Knapp basically asked that people not start problems just for the sake of starting problems. Seems simple enough to me, not to mention it's a rule that's always been in place here.

josebach wrote:No, it's like starting a Cowboys thread and telling Eagle fans they're not allowed to post there. That's what's happening here.


BZZT. Wrong answer. It's telling Eagle fans not to stir up problems just to stir up problems. Happens in Red Sox/Yankee threads all the time on the baseball side. Warnings are given for it and even bans. We've got a couple of members on the baseball side that are totally banned from General Talk. I can easily do that on this side for those who lack self control.

josebach wrote:If I started an atheism thread pointing out all of the fallacies in religious doctrine would you as a Christian find it antagonistic? What if I told you to just ignore it and show the atheists here a little common courtesy?


I couldn't care in the least. People are going to believe what they choose to believe and no one's going to change anyone else's opinion on religion. You haven't learned that by now? Geez... Oh, and have I discussed my religion anywhere in this thread?

josebach wrote:So let me get this straight. You think the people that start religious thread here want to discuss their religion in peace? It sounds to me like you're telling us that we shouldn't post in Christian threads here unless they're reaffirming posts. Is that what you're saying?


Well they sure don't post it up so people will hop in and start fights. Also you should have your hearing checked, because you heard flat wrong. One cannot disagree with another and not show class and respect while doing it? Is it that hard? If so, then yes, best not to post, as there are penalties for one's actions if all they are doing is starting problems. If you can disagree and be respectful about it at the same time, then no worries, but obviously that's a problem for you or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Re: That's My King!

Postby josebach » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:35 pm

Madison wrote:
josebach wrote:If I'm not mistaken it was the religious people (knapplc) telling the secular people where and where not to post. I didn't for one second tell anyone what they could and couldn't discuss. All I said was that if you get offended by having a legitimate discussion about religion, you shouldn't partake in those threads. If you look back, I'm not the one who claimed to be offended.


Knapp basically asked that people not start problems just for the sake of starting problems. Seems simple enough to me, not to mention it's a rule that's always been in place here.

josebach wrote:No, it's like starting a Cowboys thread and telling Eagle fans they're not allowed to post there. That's what's happening here.


BZZT. Wrong answer. It's telling Eagle fans not to stir up problems just to stir up problems. Happens in Red Sox/Yankee threads all the time on the baseball side. Warnings are given for it and even bans. We've got a couple of members on the baseball side that are totally banned from General Talk. I can easily do that on this side for those who lack self control.

josebach wrote:If I started an atheism thread pointing out all of the fallacies in religious doctrine would you as a Christian find it antagonistic? What if I told you to just ignore it and show the atheists here a little common courtesy?


I couldn't care in the least. People are going to believe what they choose to believe and no one's going to change anyone else's opinion on religion. You haven't learned that by now? Geez... Oh, and have I discussed my religion anywhere in this thread?

josebach wrote:So let me get this straight. You think the people that start religious thread here want to discuss their religion in peace? It sounds to me like you're telling us that we shouldn't post in Christian threads here unless they're reaffirming posts. Is that what you're saying?


Well they sure don't post it up so people will hop in and start fights. Also you should have your hearing checked, because you heard flat wrong. One cannot disagree with another and not show class and respect while doing it? Is it that hard? If so, then yes, best not to post, as there are penalties for one's actions if all they are doing is starting problems. If you can disagree and be respectful about it at the same time, then no worries, but obviously that's a problem for you or we wouldn't be having this discussion.



Ok, then. I really had no idea that I was starting problems for the sake of starting problems. I thought each of my comments was justified, but apparently I was wrong. You're a mod, so you must know best. It also looks like I showed no class and respect in this thread and for that I'm extremely sorry. In the future I will go out of my way to be respectful and courteous when debating religion. I will also continue to show class and respect by not starting atheist and agnostic threads because of the many members here who are religious. You might not care, but if I had to guess I'd say the majority of Christians here appreciate the fact that there's not a lot of atheism/agnosticism talk here. If people are going to continue to try to make the cafe more religious, then those that oppose that will just have to push back more respectfully.
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Re: That's My King!

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Thu Sep 06, 2007 4:43 pm

josebach wrote:Well, there's no question this place was turning into frigging Sunday school around here, but that wasn't the real reason I left. The real reason was because I had it up to my ears with a couple posters and their judgemental and pretentious BS. Well, after discovering those same posters who I love so much also post over in baseball GT, I figured I had two choices... A) leave the cafe all together or B) become more tolerant and come back to football GT (which I like better than baseball GT anyway). Sorry to disappoint you. I know how much you were hoping I'd choose option A.


It may come as a bit of a shock to you, but I couldn't care less which option you choose. Your initial contributions to the Cafe were lighthearted and very welcome, which I believe I expressed a number of times. Upon getting into a few conversations with these 'judgemental' and 'pretentious' people (which one was I, or was it both?), you decided to quickly become antagonistic, demeaning, and judgmental yourself. Therefore, if I engage into a conversation with you it is not because you are posting as josebach, but because you are posting on a forum I enjoy.

We all know that you were hurt at some point in your life by people professing to be Christians, but it is quite narrowminded of you to lump us all into the same category. I understand that you are afraid and it was wrong for anyone who claims to be Christian to take advantage of that. But staying bitter after all these years is not a constructive way to handle it.

josebach wrote:I find it interesting that the secular people are being painted as the bad guys here. "Just ignore it", they say. "Don't post in the thread", they say. The religious people here know this is a secular website, right? They know a lot of people aren't Christian here, right? They know that an outwardly religious thread will be met with debate and criticism, right? Well if that's the case, how can the non-religious be the bad guys when WE'RE NOT THE ONES BRINGING THIS STUFF UP? Whether you admit it or not, these religious threads are antagonistic towards non-believers and you know it. So we're the bad guys for playing along and you guys are morally superior? Surely I'm not the only one here to see this?


There are many other Cafers who believe the same way that you do, but who choose not to attack with their beliefs, just simply bring them up when the topic permits. This is what I suggested to bighaas in this thread. Haas is so new to this site that he wouldn't know the things that you suggest. Myself, Knapp, Joel, Azrael, etc. know better. We know that many of you would be offended by such things so it's not brought up by us unless it's relevant to a conversation. And Haas even said this wouldn't happen again and offered to discuss this off the public boards with anyone interested. Why keep pummeling him about it?

josebach wrote:*edit* Sorry for getting my panties in a bunch. Omaha and I have a bit of history, ay Omaha? Oh, one last thing. It's implied that the secular people here don't treat religion with respect. Did you ever stop to think that maybe the reason we don't go around starting atheist and agnostic threads here is BECAUSE we have respect for the religious people here? Perhaps a little reciprocation is in order?


We Christians devert our eyes much more often than you realize. Like Knapp pointed out earlier, there are numerous threads that some of us don't participate in for different reasons. I choose not to participate in the Hottest Chicks threads/battles. My personal decision and I'm not the only one. But I'm not in those threads ridiculing those who do now do I? Nor should I. A great number of guys I appreciate around here post in those types of threads. I have no problem with them, I just don't participate in them. I'm not 'better than that' or 'over that' or anything you want to paint over what I said, I just choose not to. We are much more tolerant than you give us credit for. You just have a preconceived notion that we aren't, so you come to a conclusion without considering that maybe I wasn't the one that told you you were going to hell 15 years ago.

If you'd like to exercise the possibility that not all Christians are alike, revisit Slugger's thread on the DarkSide. Brought up some very good points.
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Re: That's My King!

Postby BGbootha » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:03 pm

Ok, I am going to get myself into trouble with this post, and I probably shouldn't go on. But then I would be lying to myself and ignoring my true beliefs and I don't want to do that either.

All of this argument (not the original issue with someone's king) but the argument over the existence of this thread and the 11 pages that it has spawned so far, go back to a belief that Religion is sacred and should be untouchable. Religion is the trump card that we should simply accept and ignore....but I am sorry I cannot. I have done my very best to stay out of this thread, I have talked to a great number of posters on the baseball side (chadlincoln for instance who is a pastor) regarding these topics quite a bit and all has gone well.

People always say the same thing, "just ignore it", "if you dont' agree with it don't say anything.", "you don't need to post or even enter a thread." This is just wrong. My personal belief (take it for what it is) is that religion is a danger to our society and the world as a whole, the history of this world would look a great deal different, a great deal more peaceful, if religion had never come to pass. But it has, and it is here. Personally I don't understand religion and the human need for it. I find these discussion to be personally enlightening and enjoy them when they stay civil. This discussion stayed very civil and the only arguments that has gotten out of hand has nothing to do with actual religion at all.
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Re: That's My King!

Postby Madison » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:26 pm

josebach wrote:Ok, then. I really had no idea that I was starting problems for the sake of starting problems. I thought each of my comments was justified, but apparently I was wrong. You're a mod, so you must know best. It also looks like I showed no class and respect in this thread and for that I'm extremely sorry. In the future I will go out of my way to be respectful and courteous when debating religion. I will also continue to show class and respect by not starting atheist and agnostic threads because of the many members here who are religious. You might not care, but if I had to guess I'd say the majority of Christians here appreciate the fact that there's not a lot of atheism/agnosticism talk here. If people are going to continue to try to make the cafe more religious, then those that oppose that will just have to push back more respectfully.


Did I ever say you were starting problems for the sake of starting problems, or that you were not showing class or respect? I took one statement you made and pointed out that it's not you who decides what can and cannot be discussed. I also pointed out that you were in no way, shape, or form being "antagonized" as you claimed. Everything else stemmed from there. Could have been a really short conversation, but you seemed to be in the mood to pick at me (or everyone) over it, so here we are.

As to the rest of that post, it's not like there are 5 different threads about religion in here. One thread was started. Big deal. Why is it people get so worked up about one thread? And then of course it's too difficult for them to avoid that one thread even though they know all it's going to do is get them in the middle of something they don't want to be in? Crazy... :-D One thread is so miniscule on the scale of the site that I totally fail to understand that. Would be like having one ant in your house. Would you have the house exterminated ASAP and tell the exterminator your house is "infested" with ants over one ant? :-b Come on man, don't overreact to something so very tiny. And no, the Cafe isn't becoming more religious, but when the vast majority of the world believes in a higher power of some sort (be it God, Budda, or any other higher power), there's going to be occasional talk about religion and/or non-religion. All I expect is for it to stay civil, and that's a reasonable request. For those that can, that's great. For those that can't, they will be dealt with. No different than any other topic (like the Cowboy/Eagle example from earlier).

Oh, and I actually find atheism/agnosticism talk quite interesting. I usually just read the threads and not comment, but I will ask a question if I don't understand something, and that's only so that I can understand better. I don't have to agree with something in order to understand the thought process behind why others believe in it. If you believe there's no higher power, cool by me. I'm curious as to what you believe happens when you die (and I'd ask you if this thread was the place for it), but I wouldn't judge you or your non-religion (?) simply based on what you believe. Here's the thing about religion....and I'm going to say it knowing a few people will judge me and/or the level of my faith in a bad light due to it, but.....Not one person on this Earth can say with fact what happens when one dies. Maybe there's a heaven, maybe that's the end of the road and we fail to exist on any level. Truth be told, not one person knows that answer as 100% fact. As you mentioned earlier, yes, I am a Christian. I believe in The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. I believe when I die I will stand before God and answer to anything I did in my life, as I am here because of Him. Now can I sit here and tell you for fact that it "will" go that way? No I cannot. Can I tell you for fact that God "does" exist? Nope, can't tell you that either. On the flipside, can you tell me for fact that God doesn't exist? Nope. Neither of us know what happens when we die. We believe what we believe and neither of us can prove the other one's beliefs wrong. Silly and stupid to even try really, and even dumber to bash and cause problems for no reason over it.

And to think, this all started because I told you that it's not up to you as to what people can and cannot discuss. :-b Geeeez :-b . Someone pass me another beer, as this is just plain nuts. :*)
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Re: That's My King!

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:32 pm

What's the over/under on jose starting a atheist/agnostic thread? :-D :-b
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Re: That's My King!

Postby josebach » Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:42 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:What's the over/under on jose starting a atheist/agnostic thread? :-D :-b


Zero. There is absolutely no chance I would do that. I don't think this is a game.

In response to your post...

That was a nice post and was actually quite big of you. Sure I have some resentment towards the numerous bad experiences I've had from Christians growing up and going to a hardcore Baptist high school certainly didn't help in that regard. I've also had the misfortune of having some of the most horrible people I've ever met turn out to be very religious. It's actually gotten so bad these last couple years that whenever I see someone acting ugly, I immediatley start wondering if they're Christian. Sure, I've had some bad luck in this regard and I realize that there are tons of good people in every religious denomination so by no means do I make personal judgements based solely on religion. The church I went to growing up was Presbyterian church and was nowhere near as condemning as the Baptist high School I went to. It was also full of wonderful, loving people. Of course it kind of sucked when our minister was busted for sexually assaulting a male police officer. What also sucked was that the elders of the church snowed the entire congregation and told them that it wasn't true. The kicker is, my brother was a police officer at the time and was actually present when the arrest occurred. NO BS. We left the church after that and I believe that was the time that I was fully able to look at Christianity and religion objectively. Even so, my resentment doesn't only comes from personal experiences. I've come to the conclusion that despite the irrefutable good that religion sometimes causes, I feel that generally speaking religion is destroying the world. The turmoil the world is in is because of religion. Granted, Christianity isn't the main culprit, but the mindset is essentially the same. Teaching children that "faith" and not "logic" is the answer to the most difficult questions man can ponder in my opinion is a crime. Our mind is our most prized possession and I feel that religion keeps it from reaching it's full potential. Maybe I'm wrong. I've been wrong before, but everythig I've learned in my 33 years on this planet tells me I'm right. I know it sounds trite, but truth is what I'm after. If you're not constantly seeking truth, what's the point of living? This is why I feel compelled to speak up. I can't in good conscience stand by and not say anything. I don't like arguing and fighting with people. Believe it or not, I'm normally a very light-hearted, good-natured guy. If I had my way, religion would never be brought up at the cafe. Unfortunately, that's not within my power.
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