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Re: Pats stealing jets signals? ...

Postby steelerfan513 » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:09 pm

Now Wade Wilson is angry. Personally, I can't say I blame him.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3019472

Dallas assistant wants Goodell to explain Belichick's punishment

By Ed Werder
ESPN.com
(Archive)
Updated: September 14, 2007, 3:05 PM ET

In his first comments since NFL commissioner Roger Goodell punished coach Bill Belichick and the New England Patriots for cheating without banning him from coaching in games, Cowboys quarterbacks coach Wade Wilson said he intends to write a letter to the league office seeking an explanation for what he considers inconsistent enforcement of NFL policy.

Wilson also said he might attempt to determine whether he can appeal his five-game suspension.

"I would say there is definitely a double standard being applied here," Wilson said Friday when reached at his home near the team's practice facility. "I don't want to be seen as a crybaby or as someone questioning the commissioner's decision, but I see some major inconsistencies here.

"To me, they're holding the organization accountable instead of the person."

On Sept. 1, the NFL suspended Wilson for five games and fined him $100,000 -- nearly a third of his salary. Wilson, who has suffered from diabetes for 24 years, admitted he purchased medication -- believed to be human growth hormone -- that is banned under the league's substance abuse policy (at the time he said he did not know the rule applied to coaches as well as players). Wilson did so while working as an assistant coach for the Chicago Bears and turned over phone records and credit card receipts in a seemingly successful attempt to convince the league he was taking them for his own personal benefit and not distributing them to players.

"They were concerned about distributing, and I was cleared of that or I was told I would have been banned from the NFL for life," Wilson said. "I don't want to bash the commissioner, but I definitely think there are some inconsistencies here. Intent was a big issue in my defense. What their [Patriots] intent was, I don't know. But I was just taking my punishment, and I guess what the commissioner does with Belichick is his business, but I think there are some inconsistencies here."

Belichick avoided suspension but was fined $500,000. The Patriots were fined $250,000 and will be required to forfeit at least one first-day draft choice for illegally videotaping the New York Jets' defensive signals during last Sunday's opener at the Meadowlands. The fine, the largest ever opposed on a NFL coach, represents 12 percent of Belichick's scheduled 2007 salary, which is believed to be $4.2 million.

"I did something wrong, but I did it only to benefit myself, not to gain a competitive advantage," Wilson said. "I accepted my punishment and moved on, but this is kind of a different deal. The percentage of my salary that I was fined is substantially more than the percentage he was fined as far as I can tell. I mean, $500,000 is nothing to laugh at -- but neither is $100,000. The punishment is definitely not the same in my opinion.

"I'm contemplating whether to write a letter because I accepted the punishment for my violation, didn't appeal and went about my business. All I'm asking for is an explanation, and I know exactly what the commissioner is going to say because I've read his comments, but it might make me feel better."

Wilson later said he might explore whether the window in which he had to appeal his punishment might still be open. He's hoping to use Belichick's punishment to make the point that he believes the sanctions he suffered were unfair in comparison.

"I don't know if I have the ability to do that as long as I'm suspended or whether it's too late," he said. "But it might be something worth checking into now."
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Re: Pats stealing jets signals? ...

Postby moochman » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:34 pm

Wilson has a more than legitimate beef. He should have never been punished by the league because nothing he did violated the sanctity of the league. What he did was illegal simply because it isn't an federally approved method of treating diabetes. But by the spirit of the law Goodell had been handing out, Wilson didn't qualify for. He neither disgraced himself, his team, or the integrity of the league. Whack-job Goodell got caught up in his own sanctimoniousness and punished a person for trying to live a healthier life. Nice example idiot.
That he is suspended and losses a third of his salary exposes the namby pamby punishment the hypocrite handed out to the beloved Pats and Belichick. 11% is roughly what Belichick is being fined, and he won't miss a snap. And all he did was compromise the integrity of the games.
The more this punitive commissioner acts out the more I dis-like all that he stands for.
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Re: Pats stealing jets signals? ...

Postby dgan » Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:46 pm

I just don't think you can equate the use of banned substances to what Belicheat did. You cannot have a coach, even if it was just for his own personal rehab, to have this stuff shipping to his house. What better way to distribute this stuff in the locker room than to condone having coaches receiving this stuff. Next thing you know, assistants all over the league are 'rehabbing' with the use of HGH. So I don't have a problem with that at all.

I despise Belicheat, even before this happened, but I can kind of see where the Commish's hands might be tied. This obviously is a more broad and wider scope issue than this single incident. The last thing the Commish wants to do is suspend Belicheat, then have the Pats out half the teams in the league for doing the same thing.

This seems like the Commish's way of saying to the whole league, "Look, I know this is an issue that was overlooked in the past. It isn't going to be tolerated anymore. Stop immediately or harsher punishments are to follow."

If he suspends Belicheat only to have it surface that everyone is doing it (in some form or another), then what does he do? Suspend everyone? This was a warning shot across the bow to stop this type of behavior. That is why the green dots are on the helmets and the changes were made to the way they run the sideline radios...to prevent this use of technology to gain an unfair advantage rather than try to punish people as they get caught.

I wish Belicheat would get the worst of everything, but in this case, I can see the Commish's dilemma.
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Re: Pats stealing jets signals? ...

Postby matmat » Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:31 pm

hehe... as i said before ... in soccer, you get caught cheating (fielding an illegible player, for example), you lose the game, even retroactively. track + field, cycling, etc. if you get caught, auto 2 year ban (or thereabouts)... AMERICAN SPORTS PROMOTE CHEATING.
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Re: Pats stealing jets signals? ...

Postby dgan » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:16 pm

matmat wrote:hehe... as i said before ... in soccer, you get caught cheating (fielding an illegible player, for example), you lose the game, even retroactively. track + field, cycling, etc. if you get caught, auto 2 year ban (or thereabouts)... AMERICAN SPORTS PROMOTE CHEATING.


:-?

Yes, I would much rather have a system where the Pats forfeit the game, fans regularly throw molotov cocktails on the field, shoot players after the game, riot to the death, and the league invites terrorist nations to compete for global recognition and sympathy.

Yup, you're right. What was I thinking? American sports...screw those Americans and their cheating ways!

OK, on a serious note...what the heck are you talking about? If a cornerback grabs a receiver to prevent him from catching the ball, he just gained an unfair advantage - he broke a rule and he is penalized for it. Belichick broke a rule and was penalized for it. Trying to gain a competitive advantage is his job...making sure he doesn't break the rules to do that is the NFL's job. The NFL took care of it. I fail to see the big deal here.

As I explained above, the Commish has to be careful not to set a precedent here that sets off something worse for the NFL than this PR problem. What if halfway through the season, some newspaper reports that half the teams in the league were cheating? Do you go back and forfeit games throughout the season? Do you suspend half the head coaches in the league? That would be a nightmare scenario for the NFL.

This way, they suffer through this PR problem, and if anything else comes happens they don't have to destroy the entire NFL season in the name of punishment. The strike year is a blemish and an asterik for every player that played in that era. How many times do you hear "that was the strike year"? The last thing the NFL wants is, "that was the video-gate year" in its history books. The Commish did what he could, hopefully puts a stop to it, and we move on and enjoy NFL football.

American NFL football.
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Re: Pats stealing jets signals? ...

Postby matmat » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:25 pm

dgan wrote:
:-?

Yes, I would much rather have a system where the Pats forfeit the game, fans regularly throw molotov cocktails on the field, shoot players after the game, riot to the death, and the league invites terrorist nations to compete for global recognition and sympathy.


that's the dark side of sports. shouldn't happen and should be severely dealt with.

OK, on a serious note...what the heck are you talking about? If a cornerback grabs a receiver to prevent him from catching the ball, he just gained an unfair advantage - he broke a rule and he is penalized for it. Belichick broke a rule and was penalized for it. Trying to gain a competitive advantage is his job...making sure he doesn't break the rules to do that is the NFL's job. The NFL took care of it. I fail to see the big deal here.


fair enough. the CB cheated on the play. what's the penalty? we assume catch was made at the spot of the foul (more or less). how do we compare this to what bellychick ( :-b ) did? well... he cheated to pretty much void any sort of defence that the jets had -- what should the punishment be? take away all of that patriots points for the game.

As I explained above, the Commish has to be careful not to set a precedent here that sets off something worse for the NFL than this PR problem. What if halfway through the season, some newspaper reports that half the teams in the league were cheating? Do you go back and forfeit games throughout the season? Do you suspend half the head coaches in the league? That would be a nightmare scenario for the NFL.


hell yea. the penalty should be severe and anyone, from this point on, caught breaking rules like this should face the same sort of severe punishment. I'd imagine the Patriot owners would gladly raise bellychick's salary to cover any sort of petty fines that lead to such well deserved victories.

This way, they suffer through this PR problem, and if anything else comes happens they don't have to destroy the entire NFL season in the name of punishment. The strike year is a blemish and an asterik for every player that played in that era. How many times do you hear "that was the strike year"? The last thing the NFL wants is, "that was the video-gate year" in its history books. The Commish did what he could, hopefully puts a stop to it, and we move on and enjoy NFL football.
American NFL football.


i don't really see what the problem is... if you cheat you lose. period.
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Re: Pats stealing jets signals? ...

Postby dgan » Fri Sep 14, 2007 11:59 pm

matmat wrote: how do we compare this to what bellychick ( :-b ) did? well... he cheated to pretty much void any sort of defence that the jets had -- what should the punishment be? take away all of that patriots points for the game.


That is a misrepresentation of the facts. Everyone involved, including the Commish, specifically said that the violation was not used by the Pats in that game and did not affect that game. Perhaps that was the intention, but the Jets knew what was going on from the start which is why they had guys standing there with towels to block anyone's view of the signals going in. Then the cameraman was escorted out.

So while there may have been intent to cheat, there was only a rule violation that occurred. If you want to believe otherwise, that is fine, but punishment must be based on proof. If there is no proof that it was used by the Pats to help them in that game, then I don't know how you can punish them for it. But nevertheless, the next point is the most important, even though you just brushed it off.

hell yea. the penalty should be severe and anyone, from this point on, caught breaking rules like this should face the same sort of severe punishment. I'd imagine the Patriot owners would gladly raise bellychick's salary to cover any sort of petty fines that lead to such well deserved victories.


So you're OK if the 2007 essentially became meaningless because half the coaching staffs were suspended and dozens of games had to be forfeited. More importantly, you think the NFL would be OK with that? What is more damaging to the NFL - that fans get a little ticked off and then go watch football on Sunday, or that they come down hard, ruin an entire season, lose a ton of revenue, and put an eternal scar on their sport.

Yeah...tough call...I don't know which of those I would choose if I were the NFL.

Again, I am not a Belicheat apologist. I hate the guy as much as anyone. Blame him as much as you want. But I have a problem with those who suggest that the Commish made a mistake here. This obviously runs deeper than one man or one organization...he can't set a precedent that could risk destroying the season. It just isn't smart.

Besides, using binoculars to look at the opposing coaches isn't illegal. I have trouble determining the difference as far as in game adjustments between binoculars and a video camera. The difference would be you can catalogue video for use in later game prep, which is what they are trying to eliminate...at least that's my guess. So if they don't have the video, since it was confiscated, any actual unfair advantage was averted - at least from this particular instance.
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Re: Pats stealing jets signals? ...

Postby moochman » Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:12 am

dgan wrote:I just don't think you can equate the use of banned substances to what Belicheat did. You cannot have a coach, even if it was just for his own personal rehab, to have this stuff shipping to his house. What better way to distribute this stuff in the locker room than to condone having coaches receiving this stuff. Next thing you know, assistants all over the league are 'rehabbing' with the use of HGH. So I don't have a problem with that at all.

I despise Belicheat, even before this happened, but I can kind of see where the Commish's hands might be tied. This obviously is a more broad and wider scope issue than this single incident. The last thing the Commish wants to do is suspend Belicheat, then have the Pats out half the teams in the league for doing the same thing.

This seems like the Commish's way of saying to the whole league, "Look, I know this is an issue that was overlooked in the past. It isn't going to be tolerated anymore. Stop immediately or harsher punishments are to follow."

If he suspends Belicheat only to have it surface that everyone is doing it (in some form or another), then what does he do? Suspend everyone? This was a warning shot across the bow to stop this type of behavior. That is why the green dots are on the helmets and the changes were made to the way they run the sideline radios...to prevent this use of technology to gain an unfair advantage rather than try to punish people as they get caught.

I wish Belicheat would get the worst of everything, but in this case, I can see the Commish's dilemma.


I agree, you cannot equate use of banned substances with cheating. Banned substances can help individuals perform at a higher level, while cheating that Belichick was doing helps teams perform better. Belichick comitted a more heinous crime than PED abuse. He willfully, knowingly cheating for the direct purpose of giving his team an unfair advantage over his opponant. Wow, put it like that and you wonder why the NFL let him off so lightly. Is it becuase the league doesn't want to show that one of it's teasured franchises now has all their success tainted with the stain of cheating.
Don't you have to wonder how many of the three closely contested Super Bowl championships the Pats won would have had different outcomes were it not for Belichick's cheating? I am sure that that has a lot to do with Belichick getting off so easily. give him a big moeny fine, but not one that is enough to make him angry. Take away draft picks that mean nothing to Belicheck. And hope everyone is mezmerized by the appearance of stern justice enough that they don't look into just how much Belichick may have cheated in any of his significant victories.
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Re: Pats stealing jets signals? ...

Postby Ek » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:16 am

I don't know if it's better or worse than steroid use, although banned substances are cheating on the part of one individual, and may be beyond a team's control, so you couldn't really punish a team beyond suspending that player. This is systemic; in this case, the entire organization is at fault.

I also don't think you can compare it to committing pass interference by a DB. The way that rule is called now, everyone knows that you're most likely going to get flagged. 90% of the time I see pass interference in a game now, it's because the DB knows that it's better to give up a 20 yard penalty than a 40 yard TD pass (or even a 25 yard completion). That may not be great sportsmanship, but it's not cheating; it's strategy, like fouling a bad free-throw shooter going for a layup in a basketball game. The rules don't state that you can't grab a receiver going for a pass, they state that if you do, the offense will get a first down at the spot of the foul.

Belicheat had a system in place where he operated entirely outside of the rules and did not plan on suffering any consequences for the unfair advantage he gained. That's what makes it cheating.
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Re: Pats stealing jets signals? ...

Postby stomperrob » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:17 am

From the Miami Herald:
ON THE NFL
'Spygate' won't go away

Posted on Sun, Oct. 21, 2007
BY LEONARD SHAPIRO

NFL owners and team executives will gather in a downtown Philadelphia hotel starting Tuesday for the league's annual fall meeting. The two-day agenda is focused mainly on discussions about the routine business of the league, with no major news expected to break out, according to a league representative.

But when commissioner Roger Goodell appears at his first news conference of the session, most likely Tuesday afternoon, he will be facing a media crowd that is expected to ask a lot of questions yet to be answered about the hot-button issue that dominated the first few weeks of the season. Specifically, while the league and the New England Patriots would like the so-called ''Spygate'' story of video cheating by Bill Belichick to go away, well, it might not be that simple.

Just last week, HBO's Inside The NFL spent some quality time on the issue, with Peter King, a respected football writer for Sports Illustrated, reporting on a telling conversation he had during the week with Dallas coach Wade Phillips.

QUESTIONS ARISE

''Phillips told me something I think a lot of coaches around the league and a lot of people around the league are thinking,'' King said. 'That is, `Hey, New England was caught cheating and it is a black mark on their success.' There is no doubt in my mind that it is, and that more and more people around the league are starting to say, 'Why did this thing just go away? Why didn't it get more traction?' ''

(By the way, Phillips -- surprise, surprise -- later insisted his remarks, made public the same week the Cowboys were preparing to be crushed by the Patriots last Sunday, were taken out of context. I've known King professionally for more than 25 years, and I can virtually guarantee he quoted Phillips accurately, and very much in context.)

That being said, another longtime team executive confirmed this week that many people around the league were not happy to hear Goodell say last month that he was satisfied he had seen all the tapes in question and the matter was now essentially considered a closed case.

The executive said Patriots owner Robert Kraft and league officials basically decided it was best to make no further comment on the situation in the hope it would quietly fade out of the daily news cycle. Belichick was fined a record $500,000 and the Patriots will lose a No. 1 draft pick in 2008.

''I really thought it was very bad,'' the executive said. ``It kind of reminded you of Watergate. Here's Nixon, he's already got the election in the bag. He can't lose, but they have that dumb break-in and all hell breaks loose. This guy [Belichick] has a great football team and he goes and does something this silly. Funny thing is, he's now proving he didn't ever need to do it, the way they're dominating teams right now.

``I thought it was a terrible thing for the league. It wasn't good for Kraft. He should have taken a much stronger stand on it. The bottom line is, a lot of us are still baffled why they would even need to do these things.''

ANSWERS WANTED

On the HBO show, host Bob Costas said he had spoken with Goodell and been told ``it was always his intention to destroy the tapes and the notes once he had them in his possession. He remains satisfied that he got all the tapes and the notes. He said that the Jets situation was not an isolated situation. There were other games and perhaps other seasons. But when I asked him directly whether this practice affected any of the playoff games in their Super Bowl seasons or the Super Bowl games themselves, he said he found no evidence that it did.''

At that point, Cris Collinsworth asked the most pertinent question of all.

``Why doesn't [Goodell] say that to everybody? Because even the member teams don't know that. I have talked to several very prominent people around the league and even on the competition committee, not only did they not see the videotapes, they have been given no explanation of what was on the videotapes. So what this then created are these wild rumors. Until the commissioner comes out and tells at least the member teams exactly what he has told [Costas], these rumors are not going to end.''

Stay tuned.

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