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Sanders: Overrated? article

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Re: Sanders: Overrated? article

Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:20 pm

I would take Deion Sanders over Barry all day. Name one player in NFL history that came remotely close to being in Deion's league as a DB...

Now name all the RBs who came close to Barry... Jim Brown, Emitt Smith, LT, Herschel Walker, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, OJ Simpson, Tony Dorsett, Eric Dickerson, Marcus Allen... Now, dont get me wrong, Im not trying to take down Barry, because I do feel he is probably the best all time, but at the same time an argument can be made that its Walter Payton or Jim Brown and these other guys are all pretty damn great in their own rights.

My point is that with Deion you are getting the only true shut-down cornerback the NFL has ever seen - and he was excellent in special teams as well. If you are building a historical team from scratch you have to take the guy who is in a completely different league than anyone else at this position first - and thats Deion. You can always come back and get a Great RB in the next rd if you feel thats whats important to you.
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Re: Sanders: Overrated? article

Postby scrumtalecent » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:51 pm

I think Vinitieri has made some of the most clutch kicks during some of the most clutch times. He's helped his teams win four Super Bowls--three of them by a FG. Nicknamed "Automatic Adam" for his accuracy, and "Iceman" for his incredible poise under pressure he's head and shoulders above any other kicker in history. The question is, would I take him in my top ten when I'm picking players? Probably not. Is Deion the best corner ever? There's a good possibility of that, but I'm not picking him over Barry. Probably not even over Favre or Marino or whomever I'd pick at QB. Not a chance.
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Re: Sanders: Overrated? article

Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:43 pm

scrumtalecent wrote:I think Vinitieri has made some of the most clutch kicks during some of the most clutch times. He's helped his teams win four Super Bowls--three of them by a FG. Nicknamed "Automatic Adam" for his accuracy, and "Iceman" for his incredible poise under pressure he's head and shoulders above any other kicker in history. The question is, would I take him in my top ten when I'm picking players? Probably not. Is Deion the best corner ever? There's a good possibility of that, but I'm not picking him over Barry. Probably not even over Favre or Marino or whomever I'd pick at QB. Not a chance.


Why not? Your implication with the Vinatieri reference is that Deion wasnt that big of a factor in deciding the outcome of a game, right? I disagree. I think he made a massive impact on games because he was the only true shutdown CB to ever play and offenses had to completely change their gameplan around him. In his prime QBs didnt even challenge him - they wouldnt throw the ball to whomever he was marking because there was such a large chance that he would probably pick it off. No other defensive player has ever had that kind of impact - if you can think of one let me know. I dont think you remember Deion in his prime - he made just as much of an impact on games as any RB or QB.

You say you would take Favre or Marino over him. Thats fine. Call it a fantasy style 12 team snake draft and I'll take Deion #1 overall. Say the next 23 picks are all QBs and RBs. I'll gladly take the RB and QB that fell to me knowing that the difference between the #1RB and the #1 QB and whoever I get wouldnt be close to the value I got with Deion and the next best CB. Its simply based on a value based draft theory.

Im not saying Barry Sanders isnt the best ever - he probably was, but if given the chance I would much rather take Deion and then let a guy like LT or Marshall Faulk fall to me later. Same with QB - I miss out on Montana, Brady, Favre, Manning, and Marino? Oh Well, I guess I'll have to go with Elway, Young, Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Staubach, Bradshaw, Cunningham, Aikman, Theismann, or Moon and Starr. Do you see my point?
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Re: Sanders: Overrated? article

Postby dream_017 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:26 am

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:
scrumtalecent wrote:I think Vinitieri has made some of the most clutch kicks during some of the most clutch times. He's helped his teams win four Super Bowls--three of them by a FG. Nicknamed "Automatic Adam" for his accuracy, and "Iceman" for his incredible poise under pressure he's head and shoulders above any other kicker in history. The question is, would I take him in my top ten when I'm picking players? Probably not. Is Deion the best corner ever? There's a good possibility of that, but I'm not picking him over Barry. Probably not even over Favre or Marino or whomever I'd pick at QB. Not a chance.


Why not? Your implication with the Vinatieri reference is that Deion wasnt that big of a factor in deciding the outcome of a game, right? I disagree. I think he made a massive impact on games because he was the only true shutdown CB to ever play and offenses had to completely change their gameplan around him. In his prime QBs didnt even challenge him - they wouldnt throw the ball to whomever he was marking because there was such a large chance that he would probably pick it off. No other defensive player has ever had that kind of impact - if you can think of one let me know. I dont think you remember Deion in his prime - he made just as much of an impact on games as any RB or QB.

You say you would take Favre or Marino over him. Thats fine. Call it a fantasy style 12 team snake draft and I'll take Deion #1 overall. Say the next 23 picks are all QBs and RBs. I'll gladly take the RB and QB that fell to me knowing that the difference between the #1RB and the #1 QB and whoever I get wouldnt be close to the value I got with Deion and the next best CB. Its simply based on a value based draft theory.

Im not saying Barry Sanders isnt the best ever - he probably was, but if given the chance I would much rather take Deion and then let a guy like LT or Marshall Faulk fall to me later. Same with QB - I miss out on Montana, Brady, Favre, Manning, and Marino? Oh Well, I guess I'll have to go with Elway, Young, Namath, Unitas, Tarkenton, Staubach, Bradshaw, Cunningham, Aikman, Theismann, or Moon and Starr. Do you see my point?

LT wouldn't get back to you ;-) Maybe LT2 but not LT :-b

With that said, LT is in the same boat as Deion. A guy that changed the way teams played against him and there being less than a handful of them ever. RBs - dime a dozen......QBs - dime a dozen....Deion and LT - a league of their own
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Re: Sanders: Overrated? article

Postby moochman » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:58 am

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:I would take Deion Sanders over Barry all day. Name one player in NFL history that came remotely close to being in Deion's league as a DB...

Now name all the RBs who came close to Barry... Jim Brown, Emitt Smith, LT, Herschel Walker, Walter Payton, Marshall Faulk, OJ Simpson, Tony Dorsett, Eric Dickerson, Marcus Allen... Now, dont get me wrong, Im not trying to take down Barry, because I do feel he is probably the best all time, but at the same time an argument can be made that its Walter Payton or Jim Brown and these other guys are all pretty damn great in their own rights.

My point is that with Deion you are getting the only true shut-down cornerback the NFL has ever seen - and he was excellent in special teams as well. If you are building a historical team from scratch you have to take the guy who is in a completely different league than anyone else at this position first - and thats Deion. You can always come back and get a Great RB in the next rd if you feel thats whats important to you.


I'll give you that Deion Sanders was a great shut down corner and a great kick returner, but he sucked at run coverage. Didn't like to hit anyone. So let's not go thinking that he would make your D for you. I could argue LT or Ray Lewis type LBs as having a greater impact on their teams than Deion. Deion could take away half a field on passing downs, but would hide on run downs. That is what you want to build your team on, a guy who refused to tackle?
Barry, however, took all the pressure off the rest of the team. Made all-pros out of O-linemen all the while being critisized for all those 3 yard losses. Did anyone get that those losses were in large part due to the O-line letting the D penetrate? And what of the passing game? Tell me that Moore didn't find open spaces becuase Ds were cheating to try and stop Barry. Name me the QBs when Barry was there. Gosh, Scott Mitchell had a 4K year for crying out loud. Barry, in my mind, was much more impactful on a team than Deion could be. He took a hapless organization to the playoffs and even won a game. It angers me to think of what could have been if we'd only had a coach worth a spit.
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Re: Sanders: Overrated? article

Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:58 pm

I agree with pretty much everything you are saying mooch: Deion sucked in run coverage, and Barry made everyone else around him better - no doubt. Id still take Deion over Barry though because all those other RBs I mentioned did the same thing, and so did Deion. All the greats made those around them better. If I got stuck with OJ Simpson instead of Barry Sanders how much worse off would I really be? As Treat mentioned, Id probably also take the original LT ahead of Barry too.

Now I'm certainly no NFL historian, but the guy's I would want to take early arent necessarily those RBs and QBs who are considered top 3 all time - those positions are stacked with great players. I would rather target those players that are in a different league than anyone else at their position first - the LTs and Deions of the NFL. Maybe you guys can help me think of some other players who were so far superior to their peers that they may make a case for being a first rd pick.

As far as the run stopper deficiency Deion has, if we are talking about an all history team, I guess it wouldnt be that much of a concern IMO. :-b
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Re: Sanders: Overrated? article

Postby stomperrob » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:02 pm

I'll take Barry with my 1st round pick and if Deion is gone I'll take Mel Blount as my CB - a CB so dominant and brutally effficient at his job that the NFL brought in the "Mel Blount" rule regarding the bump and run to protect the poor hapless & helpless WR's. Blount was a unique blend of size and speed, considered the protoype CB of his era. Unlike Deion, he was a punishing tackler on run support. Whereas Deion had the moves and finesse, Blount was known for his brutal pounding of WR's. Blount was equaly adept at either zone or man-to-man defence. In 1972, he didn't allow a single TD.
NFL's most valuable defensive player in 1975 by the Associated Press, earned all-pro acclaim in 1975, 1976, 1977 and 1981. He also was a four-time All-AFC selection and played in five Pro Bowls.

(And he had no problem adapting after the Mel Blount rule was introduced just in case someone wants to argue he could't play under today's rules)
Last edited by stomperrob on Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sanders: Overrated? article

Postby dream_017 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:52 pm

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:As Treat mentioned, Id probably also take the original LT ahead of Barry too.


:,-( I can't wait to get rid of this Av/sig combo....nobody knows who I am :,-(

Don't worry CBM, I know that you thought you were in the Minnesota forum ;-) ;-7
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Re: Sanders: Overrated? article

Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:20 pm

dream_017 wrote:
Cornbread Maxwell wrote:As Treat mentioned, Id probably also take the original LT ahead of Barry too.


:,-( I can't wait to get rid of this Av/sig combo....nobody knows who I am :,-(

Don't worry CBM, I know that you thought you were in the Minnesota forum ;-) ;-7


haha - sorry about that. How did you end up with that sig/av combo anyway?
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Re: Sanders: Overrated? article

Postby dream_017 » Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:11 pm

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:haha - sorry about that. How did you end up with that sig/av combo anyway?

It's part of the being a new mod hazing :-P For the record this was one of the better combos that they came up with 8-o
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