Tom Brady... Undisputed Best QB All-Time

[BigBadBrawler]

Mod edit previous post please...

[russellzisky]

This puts some perspective on things

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21898110/

[thedude]

One thing you have to keep in mind is what are the numbers of the Pat's WR compared when on NE and when playing with another QB.

Troy Brown: had 101 catches for 1199 yards in 2001 amd 97 catches for 890 yards in 2002. Both with Brady. His best year without Brady 83 catches for 944 yards. No other year without Brady did he have more than 41 catches.

David Givens: Has had 8 grabs since leaving New England. But he has been hurt, so i guess we can forget about him

Reche Caldwell: 61 rec. for 760 yards with Brady. in 4 the years before he played with brady he caught 22, 8, 18, 28. This year he has managed to get into three games (for a medicore team) and has no passes.

Deion Branch: Caught 78 passes for 998 yards. Last year he regressed some catching 53 passes for 725 yards. this year he has not been healthy.

Wes Welker: Has already set career highs in receptions (68), yards (729), and tds (7). Before this year he had only caught ONE td in his career (though last year was his breakout season).

Randy Moss: was aweful his two years in Oakland. catching 60 and 42 passes in 2005 and 2006. In those 2 years combined he had 11 TDs. This year he is on pace for 25. He was great for the Vikings. And this might not be his career year, but it is certianly one of the best in what will be a Hall of fame career.


So if it is just the system, then why does almost every Wide Out that plays with Brady have a career year?

[34=Sweetness]

Ok, what the hell? Before this year, his highest TD total was 28. He's always been a solid, good quarterback who didn't put up gaudy numbers but ran an offense well enough to win Super Bowls mostly on the back of a strong defense. He's always been good, and this year is probably the best QB season of all time, but one year does not make him the best QB of all-time. He hasn't even played long enough to make this statement; its just dumb.

[zevon]

Add David Patten to the list of WR's that have dropped off the face of the earth since leaving NE.
I think Gaffney could shine with more playing time, he has good hands and gets open.

[Twisted Sister]

Gentleman,

Good debate so far...

1) First, I do not consider raw stats as the measure of the best (or the accumulation of such... e.g. why Marino can NEVER be called the best). Yes, there must be a reasonable length of time to make players eligible for the title of BEST EVER (I'd say 6-7 seasons is the min.). Also, stats are definately an important factor... as they eliminate our biased/selective memories.

2) I noticed the immediate emergence of Joe Montana's in this thread... I would submit that Brady is just as clutch. Look at the first superbowl run season, amazing games under immense pressure (including the superbowl). He is the definition of cool under pressure.

3) Brady has been surrounded by mediocre WRs for much of his career... no all time NFL best WR - Jerry Rice (this is UNDEBATEABLE... to that I think we can all agree). Peyton Manning has had Harrison (top 10 all time) for his whole career. Which future hall of fame WRs has Brady played with for more than 1- 3 seasons?

4) Schemes are only as effective as the players running them.

Would 4 SB rings, an undefeated season, the perfect QB season, and prior seasons of top performances be enough?? If not, what would... 5 SB rings?? 2 perfect seasons??


BTW- As I type this, Terry Bradshaw just stated that Brett Farve is the best QB ever... lol
BTW - Giants will upset "the perfect season" Dec 29th... like they did for the Denver Broncos...

[flotsamnjetsam]

I've been watching football for 30+ years & Elway's still the best QB I ever saw play. He could do it with his arm AND his legs. He NEVER had an elite WR to throw to. He led the Broncos to 3 SB's in the 80's with a weak D & weak running game.

Bottom line is that unless Brady shatters every single career passing record there is (like Rice for WR's), you can always argue for 5-10 different guys (maybe less) at each position. Brady is unbelievable. So is Manning. So was Elway. So was Montana. So was Unitas. That's what makes sports radio work. Different opinions and none of them are right.

[nameless1]

Culpepper had over 5,100 yards of offense with Randy Moss in 2004. McNabb was having an MVP season last year with Stallworth as his number 1. Brady is a better qb than both of them were but it shows how much help Brady has and how one amazing statistical season does not make you the greatest ever. Who were Dan Marino's top 2 recievers when he passed for over 5,000 yards? Mark Clayton? Mark Duper? Brady's also got an incredible offensive line and defense to make it easier for him to score. It's definitely not "undisputed" that he is the greatest ever.

[ampant]

He's won 3 Superbowls, so he's right behind Bradshaw and Montana's record of 4 - I'm sure he'll be tying them for that honor fairly soon.

He has an 80-24 record as a starter (.769 winning percentage) and he holds the NFL record for consecutive post-season wins (10).

As for comparisons to Montana - Brady's career passer rating is 92.9, Montana's is 92.3

Brady is 30 years old and only needs to play a few more years to catch Montana in TD passes -
Brady's career TD-INT: 185-82
Montana's TD-INT: 273-139

What more do you want from your Quarterback? The only thing he doesn't have that Favre, Marino, etc. have is the longevity, of course, but even if his career ended today he'd still have to be considered one of the all-time greats.

As for the comment that all these guys would be doing the same thing Brady is doing if they played for the Patriots, well that just proves Brady belongs in the same company... do you really think Brady wouldn't be doing well if he'd played for the 49ers' Superbowl teams in the '80s? He probably wouldn't throw nearly as many picks as Favre if he'd played for Green Bay all these years, either.

Just give credit where it's due, folks. The guy's a stud.

He's still got a lot of games to play. If he continues at this pace for the rest of his career, you won't get any arguments from me. But there's no sense even arguing about it until after the dude has retired. Is he on pace to be considered in the argument? Definitely. But he is only halfway there.

[m16a]

Tom Brady... Undisputed Best QB All-Time

I think the long and short of it is this. To be undisputed, you can't have people arguing against you. If I posted a thread saying Jerry Rice is the best WR ever, undisputed, no one will come in and say someone can currently take that position(maybe down the road, who knows) but not now. Its being disputed, therefore Brady is not the undisputed best QB ever. He's a good QB on a great pace to do very well. Give me 4 seasons like Barry Sanders' 1500+ in a row(in comparable QB stats) and then we might have an argument for undisputed best of all time...