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New Jersey abolishes death penalty

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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby Madison » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:31 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:It's a tragic incident no matter how you paint it, that is for sure. I honestly don't know how I would react if I were in that situation. Though I'd like to think I'd make the right one, for both victims. There isn't an easy fix or an easy answer, however, I don't think getting rid of the result of something this tragic will rid the victim of the memory.

And I'm pretty sure rapists don't rape to procreate. ;-)


Of course it doesn't remove the memory, nothing will (and isn't that enough punishment to put on an innocent person?), but you feel the rape victim should be punished physically, financially, and over a long length of time, on top of adding to the emotional damage. I just don't agree with that and am quite stunned anyone would think that was an acceptable thing to force on a rape victim.

And actually, there have been plenty of cases of rapists wanting nothing more than to "plant their seeds".
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby treat24 » Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:54 pm

Madison wrote:And actually, there have been plenty of cases of rapists wanting nothing more than to "plant their seeds".


I was just gonna post the same thing... evil thunder stealer you :-C
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby jayday » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:19 pm

Omaha Red Sox wrote:It's a tragic incident no matter how you paint it, that is for sure. I honestly don't know how I would react if I were in that situation. Though I'd like to think I'd make the right one, for both victims. There isn't an easy fix or an easy answer, however, I don't think getting rid of the result of something this tragic will rid the victim of the memory.

Then how can you think you should decide for someone else? That's what irks me about topics like this. People have these strong convictions and opinions but if you put them in that situation, they are unsure about how they would react.

If some guy rapes your 14-year old daughter, and you can honestly say that you would make her go through with it no matter how traumatic, how damaging, how hellish the experience would be, then that's fine. But I don't think I could, and I wouldn't want others making that decision for me or my family.

When she cries to you, "Daddy, why are you making me do this?" Would "Because that's what it says in The Bible" really be the best comfort you could offer? The same one that declares people who work on Sundays shall be put to death? Not good enough for me...

I'm Christian by the way, but I just don't take the literalistic view of The Bible that so many do. I think it's a great guideline and can offer wisdom in different areas, but as josebach said, there is just entirely too much cherry-picking of verses for me to believe in the infallible authority of its content.

I hope my tone doesn't come across too strong here, ORS. It's okay that we disagree and it wasn't meant as a slam on you. I'm just throwing in my 2 cents that in certain circumstances, some decisions should be left to the person or families involved.
And I'm pretty sure rapists don't rape to procreate. ;-)

I'm sure it's very rare, but I would be more surprised to hear that it doesn't happen than vice versa considering all the psychopaths in our world.

There was an episode of a TV show a while back, can't remember which, but the guy had a terminal illness and didn't want to die without fathering children. Anyway, he would kidnap women, rape them, detain them, and give them pregnancy tests to make sure he was "successful". And the shocker: he targeted religious families because he knew they would force themselves, or be forced, to carry the baby.

Hmm, looks like Mad and treat beat me to it. That's what I get for trying to watch a movie and post at the same time.
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby treat24 » Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:28 pm

The show was criminal minds ;-D


i think... :-?
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:14 pm

jayday wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:It's a tragic incident no matter how you paint it, that is for sure. I honestly don't know how I would react if I were in that situation. Though I'd like to think I'd make the right one, for both victims. There isn't an easy fix or an easy answer, however, I don't think getting rid of the result of something this tragic will rid the victim of the memory.

Then how can you think you should decide for someone else? That's what irks me about topics like this. People have these strong convictions and opinions but if you put them in that situation, they are unsure about how they would react.

If some guy rapes your 14-year old daughter, and you can honestly say that you would make her go through with it no matter how traumatic, how damaging, how hellish the experience would be, then that's fine. But I don't think I could, and I wouldn't want others making that decision for me or my family.

When she cries to you, "Daddy, why are you making me do this?" Would "Because that's what it says in The Bible" really be the best comfort you could offer? The same one that declares people who work on Sundays shall be put to death? Not good enough for me...

I'm Christian by the way, but I just don't take the literalistic view of The Bible that so many do. I think it's a great guideline and can offer wisdom in different areas, but as josebach said, there is just entirely too much cherry-picking of verses for me to believe in the infallible authority of its content.

I hope my tone doesn't come across too strong here, ORS. It's okay that we disagree and it wasn't meant as a slam on you. I'm just throwing in my 2 cents that in certain circumstances, some decisions should be left to the person or families involved.


By this logic, we should all never have any convictions over things we haven't experienced ourselves. :-?

I'm not going to suggest that I would absolutely, most certainly do the right thing in every single uncomfortable situation I was put into. But I certainly hope that I would.
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby Karoz » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:59 pm

moonhead wrote:
Madison wrote:
moonhead wrote:but you know what makes me sick? blood lust.


Why is wanting to rid the world of a waste of oxygen that murdered someone else, "bloodlust" in your opinion? We're not talking about Mary Poppins or some dumb schmuck that accidentally and/or inadvertantly took someone else's life, and we want to kill them just to kill them or for some sort of blood thirst. We're talking about stone cold murderers here. There's a big difference in someone who causes a car accident where someone winds up dead, versus someone who stalks, kidnaps, rapes, and kills someone. With your thinking, we might as well call anyone who's ever had a drink in their life an alcoholic or recovering alcoholic, or anyone who's ever laid a bet on anything as someone with a gambling "problem". You just lump it all together instead of really looking at it I think, and I believe that's where the difference of opinion is. I can't speak for others, but I'm not saying anyone that takes anyone's else's life for any reason should be given the death penalty. I'm saying for the stone cold murderers, it most certainly should be done and the process should be light years faster than it currently is.

I mean for example, a guy plans out, stalks, kidnaps, rapes, and kills a woman. Possibly even more than one. There's unquestionable proof he did it, and possibly he even confessed to it. And there are several people who fall into this category in jail as we speak. You believe we should feed, cloth, house, give medical aid, pay out for jails, security guards, etc, for this guy for the rest of his life? You believe he's still got the right to live? Obviously I feel we should just stick a bullet in his head, send the message to possible future killers that this is what happens should you choose to take that path, and be done with it. Why you would want to let this person live is something I don't understand.

i don't believe it's anyone's place to take another's life. and you addressed the human element of judgment. i don't see the point in ending another person's life. one death does not unmake the death of others. it's pointless. it's not justice. justice is sticking that person in a terrible place and letting them think about how they've gone wrong and how bad they want out. every day. for the rest of their life. not ending their miserable life. that's not justice. there is no suffering there. you're not going to convince me that killing someone as retribution for another death is justified anymore than i'm going to convince you that your money couldn't be better spent elsewhere.


While justice is certainly a motivating factor for some who support the death penalty, the prevention of murder is more prevalent. Those who oppose the death penalty say that life in prison would be a harsher punishment.

However, I think these people are overestimating this sort of sentence. I'm not claiming that serving a life sentence is a fun thing, as a claim such as that would be ridiculous. However, for those who have troubled lives, prison might not seem as awful. I'm not referring to low security prisons, I'm referring to high security prisons, which murderers are confined to. Prisoners are very likely to have their own cells, and live slightly more seclusive lives. There are no bills to worry about, your food is cooked and served for you, and the hope of escape is always there. For those who wish to continue a life outside the prison, said hope is a very important factor for mental stability. Even though the odds of escaping are very slim, the hope itself makes prison life a lot more attractive than death.

I do believe the death penalty has the potential to be a very effective measure, in terms of preventing murders, but it has to involve something other than lethal injection. We switched to this method in an attempt to make the process seem more civilized, but it lost a great deal of it's intimidation, in my opinion. Someone is less likely to commit a murder if they believe they are going to encounter an electric chair, or a gas chamber.

Perhaps the cells could be more simplistic, or the last meal could be modified. My point is that the death penalty has the potential to be much more effective, in terms of preventing murder, than a life sentence in prison could ever be.
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby knapplc » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:21 am

Madison wrote:And actually, there have been plenty of cases of rapists wanting nothing more than to "plant their seeds".

I'm not saying you're wrong, but this is the first I've ever heard of this. If you ever run across a story where this is the case and you remember this conversation, PM me the article, wouldja?
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby josebach » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:54 am

I am a dumbass. That's twice now I clicked on "quote" instead of "edit". %-6
Last edited by josebach on Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby josebach » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:56 am

Karoz wrote:My point is that the death penalty has the potential to be much more effective, in terms of preventing murder, than a life sentence in prison could ever be.


I disagree completely. Even if there wasn't ample evidence to prove that the death-penalty isn't a deterrent, common sense should tell you. First of all, how many bad guys actually think of the ramifications of committing these types of crimes? Secondly, if what you said was true, it would mean that you think the bad guys DO think of the ramifications and ultimately decide that spending the rest of their life behind bars is a risk they're willing to take, but being put to death isn't. I believe from a free person's perspective, losing your freedom for the rest of your life holds the same weight on sombody regardless of the method. The reality of being put to death I dont' think sinks in until the person is actually on death row awaiting execution.

I"m very neutral about this issue. I think human beings desperately need to evolve and putting people to death is as barbaric and devolved of an action as we can commit. My desire to not see these people put to death is not for their benefit, but for ours as a race. It's about time we start looking at man's aggression as a disease and start working on a cure. With some of the things we still believe and do, we are nowhere near as civilized as we think.

On the flipside, I'm not going to sit back and tell somebody else that they're wrong for wanting the murderer of someone they love to be put to death. Sitting here in my comfy office, it's real easy for me to say the death penalty is wrong, but if someone murdered my wife or somebody else I love, I wouldn't want them to continue to breathe either. Of course, this kind of goes back to my point about being civilized. It's not very civilized to allow passion to rule over reason in these matters. Having bad guys put to death might make us feel better, but it's a dark mark on our "soul" regardless of how much they deserved it.

Human beings are broken and we need to be fixed.
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby knapplc » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:35 am

While I generally agree with what you're saying, Jose, what is or is not "civilized" varies from country to country, state to state, even town to town.
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