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New Jersey abolishes death penalty

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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby josebach » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:52 am

Holy crap!!! Did the "edit" button change locations or something? There's gotta be a reason I keep clicking the rightmost button.
Last edited by josebach on Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby josebach » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:54 am

knapplc wrote:While I generally agree with what you're saying, Jose, what is or is not "civilized" varies from country to country, state to state, even town to town.


Very true. Even Muslim extremists think they're civilized probably. This, like many other issues, is relative and varies greatly from one's own point of view. Who among us thinks they're not civilized? I'm sure there's aspects of myself that some people might consider un-civilized and you know what? They're probably right.

I don't know the answer, but I don't need to in order to identify that there's problem.
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby Karoz » Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:01 am

josebach wrote:
Karoz wrote:My point is that the death penalty has the potential to be much more effective, in terms of preventing murder, than a life sentence in prison could ever be.


I disagree completely. Even if there wasn't ample evidence to prove that the death-penalty isn't a deterrent, common sense should tell you. First of all, how many bad guys actually think of the ramifications of committing these types of crimes? Secondly, if what you said was true, it would mean that you think the bad guys DO think of the ramifications and ultimately decide that spending the rest of their life behind bars is a risk they're willing to take, but being put to death isn't. I believe from a free person's perspective, losing your freedom for the rest of your life holds the same weight on sombody regardless of the method. The reality of being put to death I dont' think sinks in until the person is actually on death row awaiting execution.

I"m very neutral about this issue. I think human beings desperately need to evolve and putting people to death is as barbaric and devolved of an action as we can commit. My desire to not see these people put to death is not for their benefit, but for ours as a race. It's about time we start looking at man's aggression as a disease and start working on a cure. With some of the things we still believe and do, we are nowhere near as civilized as we think.

On the flipside, I'm not going to sit back and tell somebody else that they're wrong for wanting the murderer of someone they love to be put to death. Sitting here in my comfy office, it's real easy for me to say the death penalty is wrong, but if someone murdered my wife or somebody else I love, I wouldn't want them to continue to breathe either. Of course, this kind of goes back to my point about being civilized. It's not very civilized to allow passion to rule over reason in these matters. Having bad guys put to death might make us feel better, but it's a dark mark on our "soul" regardless of how much they deserved it.

Human beings are broken and we need to be fixed.


I agree with you; most criminals do not consider the ramifications of their actions. They neglect to consider the severity of their possible punishment.

Perhaps the reality of spending the rest of your life in prison doesn't sink into their minds properly. The false hope of escape is perpetuated by references to such events in movies, television shows, and books. They might have the misconceived notion that obtaining an acquittal in court will be easy. There could be a myriad of reasons for them to brush aside the consideration of these consequences. We need to make the punishment for such actions so dreadful that it will have a much greater chance of passing through their mind before they commit an act of murder. The question is, which form of punishment could potentially be more effective in doing so; life in prison, or the death penalty? How could one be improved to "outperform" the other?

I mentioned the possible changes that could be made to the death penalty in my earlier post. These changes include shortening the time spent on death row, furnishing the cells with only basic amenities, and perhaps reverting back to the gas chamber, or the electric chair.

My major gripe with using life in prison as a punishment is the lack of severity that it portrays. While it doesn't compare to that of the free world, prisons have their own realities in which prisoners can live out relatively enjoyable lives, given the circumstances. They enter a social environment filled with individuals who understand them better than anyone else ever has. They have no bills to worry about, all of their major, difficult decisions are made for them, they participate in recreational activities on a daily basis, etc. The list goes on and on. As I said, it doesn't compare to the free world by any means, but for someone who is more than likely struggling in their current life, the threat of life in prison won't even cause them to bat an eye. If this reality isn't working out for them, then why not go ahead and act upon the murder you are seeking to commit, and then take a chance at a fresh start in this "new" reality?

I understand your concerns regarding the human race as a whole. I've often pondered about what it would be like without theft, rape, or killing of any kind... in a sense, Utopia. The absence of these types of acts would be wonderful, and gladly welcomed with open arms. Unfortunately, humans are barbaric in nature. We only refrain from acting upon our innermost desires due to the consequences that would follow. The perceived consequence may consist of an actual punishment or merely the anguish of inflicting emotional harm upon another human. Regardless, it is that consequence that keeps us from following through with said desired actions. So, if the threat of life in prison is not a sufficient consequence, as I've suggested, then our only remaining defense is the death penalty.

Basically, while the death penalty may be barbaric in nature, it might very well be necessary for the overall good of our culture.
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby Madison » Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:11 am

knapplc wrote:
Madison wrote:And actually, there have been plenty of cases of rapists wanting nothing more than to "plant their seeds".

I'm not saying you're wrong, but this is the first I've ever heard of this. If you ever run across a story where this is the case and you remember this conversation, PM me the article, wouldja?


Sure, but it's nothing new. Can't count how many articles I've read about that very thing.

josebach wrote:Even if there wasn't ample evidence to prove that the death-penalty isn't a deterrent, common sense should tell you.


There isn't ample evidence. The death penalty is not used in a way that would deter murder. Until new rules and regulations are enforced, it's a big question mark as to how effective a serious and no joke death penalty would be. Personally, I think it would help, and am quite sure of it, but I have to stipulate that there is a small chance it wouldn't help anything. Until we try it, we'll never know, but there's zero evidence to prove anything because we haven't done it yet (other than the current joke of a death penalty doesn't work).

josebach wrote:Secondly, if what you said was true, it would mean that you think the bad guys DO think of the ramifications and ultimately decide that spending the rest of their life behind bars is a risk they're willing to take, but being put to death isn't.


Yes, they do. What's so scary about being in jail for 25 years if you're caught? Not to say prison is heaven or anything, but there's nothing to be scared of and a prison is much nicer than where they currently are, no bills to worry about, no safety issues, etc.

Now if they knew they'd be dead within.... say a week.... from the minute the court conviction came down, that reality would hit home and there would be less murders.

Take it on any level of law breaking. How about something as simple as speeding? Doing 80 isn't a big deal to most people, yet they won't go 120 because the risk of death is quite higher. Goes for anything really. When the risk of death is greater, less people do whatever it is. Bring in a real death penalty that isn't a joke, and the murder rate will go down. It's that simple.

josebach wrote:Holy crap!!! Did the "edit" button change locations or something? There's gotta be a reason I keep clicking the rightmost button.


Yes, it did with the latest upgrade. :-D
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Re: New Jersey abolishes death penalty

Postby Madison » Mon Dec 17, 2007 10:12 am

Karoz wrote: Perhaps the reality of spending the rest of your life in prison doesn't sink into their minds properly. The false hope of escape is perpetuated by references to such events in movies, television shows, and books. They might have the misconceived notion that obtaining an acquittal in court will be easy. There could be a myriad of reasons for them to brush aside the consideration of these consequences. We need to make the punishment for such actions so dreadful that it will have a much greater chance of passing through their mind before they commit an act of murder. The question is, which form of punishment could potentially be more effective in doing so; life in prison, or the death penalty? How could one be improved to "outperform" the other?

I mentioned the possible changes that could be made to the death penalty in my earlier post. These changes include shortening the time spent on death row, furnishing the cells with only basic amenities, and perhaps reverting back to the gas chamber, or the electric chair.

My major gripe with using life in prison as a punishment is the lack of severity that it portrays. While it doesn't compare to that of the free world, prisons have their own realities in which prisoners can live out relatively enjoyable lives, given the circumstances. They enter a social environment filled with individuals who understand them better than anyone else ever has. They have no bills to worry about, all of their major, difficult decisions are made for them, they participate in recreational activities on a daily basis, etc. The list goes on and on. As I said, it doesn't compare to the free world by any means, but for someone who is more than likely struggling in their current life, the threat of life in prison won't even cause them to bat an eye. If this reality isn't working out for them, then why not go ahead and act upon the murder you are seeking to commit, and then take a chance at a fresh start in this "new" reality?

I understand your concerns regarding the human race as a whole. I've often pondered about what it would be like without theft, rape, or killing of any kind... in a sense, Utopia. The absence of these types of acts would be wonderful, and gladly welcomed with open arms. Unfortunately, humans are barbaric in nature. We only refrain from acting upon our innermost desires due to the consequences that would follow. The perceived consequence may consist of an actual punishment or merely the anguish of inflicting emotional harm upon another human. Regardless, it is that consequence that keeps us from following through with said desired actions. So, if the threat of life in prison is not a sufficient consequence, as I've suggested, then our only remaining defense is the death penalty.

Basically, while the death penalty may be barbaric in nature, it might very well be necessary for the overall good of our culture.


Well said. ;-D
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I am The Heart of Darkness.
I now, and ever will be,
The Purity of Evil.
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