The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli - Fantasy Football Cafe 2014 Fantasy Football Cafe


Return to Football Talk

The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli

Moderator: Football Moderators

Re: The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli

Postby flotsamnjetsam » Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:44 am

18-1


:-b :-/
Image

Thanks to deluxe_247 for the awesome sig!
flotsamnjetsam
Moderator
Moderator

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterGolden Eagle EyeCafe MusketeerTrivia Time Trial ChampionPick 3 Weekly WinnerMatchup Meltdown SurvivorCafe Blackjack Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 17169
(Past Year: 78)
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: New York State Of Mind: 18-1

Re: The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli

Postby A Fleshner Fantasy » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:35 pm

flotsamnjetsam wrote:18-1


:-b :-/


How is this post in the least bit applicable? :-? :-?
Image

Thanks to abrunn for the awesome sig
A Fleshner Fantasy
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe RankerMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 7746
Joined: 11 May 2006
Home Cafe: Football
Location: The Big House

Re: The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli

Postby eaglesrule » Thu Feb 14, 2008 9:25 am

Because they "1" it all with them?

Ohhhh.
The opening scene of the movie "Saving Private Ryan" is loosely based on games of dodgeball Brian Dawkins played in second grade.
eaglesrule
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2843
Joined: 3 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Football

Re: The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli

Postby skibrett15 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:50 pm

A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:
flotsamnjetsam wrote:18-1


:-b :-/


How is this post in the least bit applicable? :-? :-?

Because it grinds your gears.

QB WR combos are almost entirely dependent on the WR. What makes a great qb is his ability to find the open guy quickly enough, and the ability to get him the ball. That does not make a great QB-WR combo. It takes jake delhomme like tunnel vision for one receiver to make a truly great qb-wr combo.
ADMIN edit: please note that the overall sig limit is 12k - thanks!
(Thanks Leber)
AIM is like multiplayer notepad
skibrett15
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle Eye
Posts: 5057
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Home Cafe: Football
Location: At the Mafia Cafe

Re: The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli

Postby ivesaidway2much » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:21 pm

steelerfan513 wrote:
ivesaidway2much wrote:The difference between Big Ben and Easy E's playoff runs is the quality of their opponents. Ben played against a bunch of mediocre defenses, and a decent Seahawk team (and he got a lot of help from the officials in this one). The worst ranked defense Eli played was the Green Bay Packers at 11th, and the highest ranked Defense Ben played was Indianapolis at 11th.


Well, if you're going by yards per game, then you're correct, but you completely ignored the most important defensive stat: points per game. It really doesn't matter how many yards a defense gives up as long as they hold their opponents to very few points more than any other defense.

In scoring defense, Cincinnati was the only defense that Roethlisberger faced that wasn't ranked in the top 7 in scoring defense that year. The Bengals were 22nd, the Colts were 2nd, the Broncos were 3rd, and the Seahawks were 7th.
Actually points per game is the most useless defensive stat there is. It includes things like kick return scores and points off turnovers which the defense has little to no control over. I don't see how a defense is somehow worse for failing to run on the field and tackle Devin Hester in the middle of a punt play or Antonio Cromartie after he makes an interception. Having a good special teams unit or an offense that rarely turns the ball over has no effect on the quality of a defense. That's why the NFL ranks defenses by yards per game.
ivesaidway2much
Defensive Assistant
Defensive Assistant

User avatar

Posts: 482
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Football

Re: The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli

Postby eaglesrule » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:38 pm

ivesaidway2much wrote:
steelerfan513 wrote:
ivesaidway2much wrote:The difference between Big Ben and Easy E's playoff runs is the quality of their opponents. Ben played against a bunch of mediocre defenses, and a decent Seahawk team (and he got a lot of help from the officials in this one). The worst ranked defense Eli played was the Green Bay Packers at 11th, and the highest ranked Defense Ben played was Indianapolis at 11th.


Well, if you're going by yards per game, then you're correct, but you completely ignored the most important defensive stat: points per game. It really doesn't matter how many yards a defense gives up as long as they hold their opponents to very few points more than any other defense.

In scoring defense, Cincinnati was the only defense that Roethlisberger faced that wasn't ranked in the top 7 in scoring defense that year. The Bengals were 22nd, the Colts were 2nd, the Broncos were 3rd, and the Seahawks were 7th.
Actually points per game is the most useless defensive stat there is. It includes things like kick return scores and points off turnovers which the defense has little to no control over. I don't see how a defense is somehow worse for failing to run on the field and tackle Devin Hester in the middle of a punt play or Antonio Cromartie after he makes an interception. Having a good special teams unit or an offense that rarely turns the ball over has no effect on the quality of a defense. That's why the NFL ranks defenses by yards per game.


and yards per game are a great metric? The ultimate point of defense is to stop the other team from scoring. There are less special teams scores than instances where a defense goes soft and allows a ton of yards. You really need both, and if I am picking a fantasy d, its yards and turnovers. But in real life, the ppg stat (and many people, notably troy aikman) argue that it is the most important. Because it really is. I mean the reverse is true too, in that the team gets credit for points scored by the defense too. yards is more meaningless than the ppg scenarios you give imo.
The opening scene of the movie "Saving Private Ryan" is loosely based on games of dodgeball Brian Dawkins played in second grade.
eaglesrule
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar

Posts: 2843
Joined: 3 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Football

Re: The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli

Postby steelerfan513 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 2:56 pm

ivesaidway2much wrote:
steelerfan513 wrote:
ivesaidway2much wrote:The difference between Big Ben and Easy E's playoff runs is the quality of their opponents. Ben played against a bunch of mediocre defenses, and a decent Seahawk team (and he got a lot of help from the officials in this one). The worst ranked defense Eli played was the Green Bay Packers at 11th, and the highest ranked Defense Ben played was Indianapolis at 11th.


Well, if you're going by yards per game, then you're correct, but you completely ignored the most important defensive stat: points per game. It really doesn't matter how many yards a defense gives up as long as they hold their opponents to very few points more than any other defense.

In scoring defense, Cincinnati was the only defense that Roethlisberger faced that wasn't ranked in the top 7 in scoring defense that year. The Bengals were 22nd, the Colts were 2nd, the Broncos were 3rd, and the Seahawks were 7th.
Actually points per game is the most useless defensive stat there is. It includes things like kick return scores and points off turnovers which the defense has little to no control over. I don't see how a defense is somehow worse for failing to run on the field and tackle Devin Hester in the middle of a punt play or Antonio Cromartie after he makes an interception. Having a good special teams unit or an offense that rarely turns the ball over has no effect on the quality of a defense. That's why the NFL ranks defenses by yards per game.


What would you rather your favorite team's defense do: allow 350 yards and 6 points or 300 yards and 27 points? The Ravens were sixth in yardage defense this year, but did anyone laud Baltimore for its stellar defense in 2007?

Yeah, there are some things that defenses can't control, like interceptions or special teams, but over the course of a season, how much of a difference is that going to make? The Steelers have one of the worst special teams units in the NFL, and they still managed to give up the second fewest points per game in the NFL this year.

Maybe points given up overall isn't as good an indicator as points given up excluding special teams and defensive plays, but it's a much better indicator than yards given up.
Image
Image
Kudos to Leber for the amazing sig and to Metroid for the userbar and making them both fit
2008 and 2009 Defunct Dynasty League Champion
steelerfan513
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeMatchup Meltdown Survivor
Posts: 11906
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Home Cafe: Football

Re: The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli

Postby ivesaidway2much » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:29 pm

steelerfan513 wrote:What would you rather your favorite team's defense do: allow 350 yards and 6 points or 300 yards and 27 points? The Ravens were sixth in yardage defense this year, but did anyone laud Baltimore for its stellar defense in 2007?
Actually I thought Baltimore's defense did a fairly decent job this year. They were one of the few D's to actually make the Pats work for their scores. It's not easy to win games when Kyle Boller and Steve McNair are fumbling it away. And the Giants were 16th in ppg, so I guess that means their defense was pretty mediocre, too.

Yeah, there are some things that defenses can't control, like interceptions or special teams, but over the course of a season, how much of a difference is that going to make? The Steelers have one of the worst special teams units in the NFL, and they still managed to give up the second fewest points per game in the NFL this year.
It depends on the team's offense and special teams, which is the problem. Turnover-ridden offenses like the Giants and the Ravens have a huge effect on their defenses' points per game.

Maybe points given up overall isn't as good an indicator as points given up excluding special teams and defensive plays, but it's a much better indicator than yards given up.
Except it's not. A defense has full control over how many yards it gives up. That's not the case with points scored.
ivesaidway2much
Defensive Assistant
Defensive Assistant

User avatar

Posts: 482
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Football

Re: The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli

Postby mattb47 » Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:56 pm

There are FAR too many defenses that are now being built up on the "bend but don't break" idea where they don't mind giving up plenty of yardage as long as they aren't giving up the big plays and points. Yardage is, for the most part, a VERY poor indicator of how a defense played. The Baltimore defense was terrible this year for nearly the entire season, they gave up over 25 points 8 times this season and over 30 points in 4 of those games. They were inconsistent at best and if part of your argument is based on the idea that you thought Baltimore's defense did a "fairly decent job this year", you're not going to win saying things like that. Despite the Ravens playing about as well as they were going to all year against NE, the Pats still scored 27 points on them. The Giants defense actually was mediocre for most of the year, but they turned it up when it counted. I mean they gave up 41 points to Minnesota, 45 to Dallas, and 35 to Green Bay. They were inconsistent on both sides of the ball this season until the playoffs.
Image
mattb47
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Fantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe MusketeerCafe Blackjack Weekly Winner
Posts: 14238
Joined: 29 Nov 2004
Home Cafe: Football

Re: The Giants will NEVER win it all with Eli

Postby ivesaidway2much » Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:17 pm

mattb47 wrote:There are FAR too many defenses that are now being built up on the "bend but don't break" idea where they don't mind giving up plenty of yardage as long as they aren't giving up the big plays and points. Yardage is, for the most part, a VERY poor indicator of how a defense played. The Baltimore defense was terrible this year for nearly the entire season, they gave up over 25 points 8 times this season and over 30 points in 4 of those games. They were inconsistent at best and if part of your argument is based on the idea that you thought Baltimore's defense did a "fairly decent job this year", you're not going to win saying things like that. Despite the Ravens playing about as well as they were going to all year against NE, the Pats still scored 27 points on them. The Giants defense actually was mediocre for most of the year, but they turned it up when it counted. I mean they gave up 41 points to Minnesota, 45 to Dallas, and 35 to Green Bay. They were inconsistent on both sides of the ball this season until the playoffs.
That Vikings game is one of the games that leads me to believe that ppg is an overrated stat. Eli threw 3 interceptions that were returned for touchdowns and had another one inside the Giants 10 yard line. That was 28 points gift wrapped to the Vikings by one player with no connection whatsoever to the defense. The defense, on the other hand, held the team with the best rushing offense in the league to 3.3 yards per carry, and pretty much shut down Tavaris Jackson (which, obviously, is not much of feat). You tell me which is a better indication of the day the Giants defense had the 41 points the Vikings scored or the 250 yards they gained. EDIT: Oh yeah, and in the Week 1 game against the Cowboys and the Week 2 game against the Packers they gave up 478 and 368 yards, respectively.
ivesaidway2much
Defensive Assistant
Defensive Assistant

User avatar

Posts: 482
Joined: 24 Apr 2005
Home Cafe: Football

PreviousNext

Return to Football Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Start & Sit Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Get Ready...
The 2014 NFL season kicks off in 20:07 hours
(and 36 days)
2014 NFL Schedule


  • Fantasy Football
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact