Free Bagel wrote:I wasn't old enough during Mario's year to remember it, so I'll just say what I can about Brady's/Peyton's.
Brady: 50 TDs in 16 games = 3.125 TDs/game with potentially the greatest (or at worst 2nd greatest) WR of all-time. Peyton: 49 TDs in 15 games = 3.267 TDs/game without potentially the greatest WR of all-time.
Not to mention Brady's coach who let them throw 50 yard bombs when up 28pts in the 4th quarter.
Brady also attempted 100 more passes, had a lower quarterback rating, and had a significantly lower YPA. Really, this shouldn't even be a DISCUSSION.
Yeah, Brady's team was undefeated, but that has more to do with the Patriots having a top 5 defense (#1 scoring defense headed into this past week despite giving up lots of garbage time points because of big leads) vs. the Colts bottom 5 defense. Last I checked, we were talking about greatest individual season here. If we want to compare defenses we should probably start another thread for that.
Great post. I agree completely, you have to take into account that Randy Moss has made pretty much any QB throwing the ball up to him look like an all-pro QB. I can't even count the amount of times this year that Brady took advantage of this by lofting the ball up in Moss's general area and he just went up and got it. Manning's offense is based almost entirely upon route running and putting the ball where he wants it in the passing game. None of the Colts WRs (as good as Harrison and Wayne may be) are as talented or as dominant as a Randy Moss. Throw in that Manning didn't play much at all in the season finale and that the Colts weren't trying to outright embarrass teams as much as possible all season and throwing with a large lead and it makes what Manning did all the more impressive.
Here is a good question: How would Marino's stats in 84 look.... if he had either A. two WRs the caliber of Wayne and Harrison to throw to, along with a good TE like Clark, or B. a head coach that has zero respect for the game or opponents, and constantly made imprudent 4th down decisions late in bowout games, to pad the stats an unbelievable amount?
Peyton has done decent without Harrison, and Brady would have done decent without padding his stats. But Marino? There really is no excuse for his remarkable season. Then again you can also bring up the fact that Indy had a great RB in his prime, and actually ran the ball more than 20% of the time, unlike the Patriots. There is no doubt that Brady had one of the best years I can remember, but as far as help and support, I don't think 2007 holds a candle to Peyton's 2004 or Marino's 1984. Brady also had the Freak to throw to. Harrison and Wayne are very good, but neither are as physically gifted as Moss. In the Giants game in the fourth quarter, it reminded me of a Madden game how Moss had two straight streak routes that were TDs had he not dropped that first one. If Moss was on the Bears, Grossman would be a pro bowl QB Any QB with Moss to throw to and an outstanding line should have the confidence of entering a knife fight with a machine gun.
In my opinion, these three seasons really solidify who I believe are the top three QBs in the history of the league. Yes, Favre, Montana and others were great, but they were really tier 1a compared to these three. Montana had the greatest WR ever, but never had a super outstanding season. Favre was always an INT risk, and had many horrible games... even in his prime. Brady won three rings without a WR that would be a #1 guy on pretty much all teams. Manning's intelligence, cerebral prowess and mastery of the game has never been seen before. Marino never had a great team around him, but was still the greatest of his generation, and would hold pretty much all records had Favre retired at the age 99% of the other QBs have.
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benb18a wrote:Here is a good question: How would Marino's stats in 84 look.... if he had either A. two WRs the caliber of Wayne and Harrison to throw to, along with a good TE like Clark
I think a lot of people forget how impressive Mark Clayton and Mark Duper were during the 1980's. Though Duper's numbers weren't always consistent throughout his tenure in Miami, Clayton was a beast for years. In fact, Clayton's 1984 season was just one of five 1,000-yard campaigns. Clayton placed in the top five in touchdown receptions during three seasons from 1984 to 1991. That's a pretty wide range of seasons to be such a major scoring threat. It's not like Clayton was a stud one year and then widdled away. He was a major force for years, and Duper was a great beneficiary. They were the Harrison and Wayne of the 80's if there ever was one to be had. Considering the era they played in, Clayton and Duper were about as good as it got when it came to 1-2 punches at the wide receiver position.
Dr. Duran Duran wrote:I think a lot of people forget how impressive Mark Clayton and Mark Duper were during the 1980's. Though Duper's numbers weren't always consistent throughout his tenure in Miami, Clayton was a beast for years. In fact, Clayton's 1984 season was just one of five 1,000-yard campaigns. Clayton placed in the top five in touchdown receptions during three seasons from 1984 to 1991. That's a pretty wide range of seasons to be such a major scoring threat. It's not like Clayton was a stud one year and then widdled away. He was a major force for years, and Duper was a great beneficiary. They were the Harrison and Wayne of the 80's if there ever was one to be had. Considering the era they played in, Clayton and Duper were about as good as it got when it came to 1-2 punches at the wide receiver position.
That is right on the money IMO. I couldn't have put it better. Well said.
As for the topic, and statistically speaking, I think you have to give the nod to Brady (with Manning a close 2nd). But, if you factor in the era in which he played, then I think it makes what Marino did more impressive (IMO). So, I vote Marino.
Peyton didn't even look like he was trying in 2004. IF he played deep into games and kept throwing the ball like Brady has, I think he could have had closer to 60 TDs. Brady had some really dominant stretches this year, but he also had some clunkers.
This is kinda funny, but I was just surfing ESPN's NFL home page, and I came across a similar article in which the author (Jeffri Chadiha?) was also trying to put Brady's amazing season into perspective. Since I immediately thought of this thread, I thought I would come back and leave a link for those interested enough to read it.
I voted for Marino, although he is the only one I don't actually remember seeing play (I was 3 years old that season). His supporting cast, though underrated, was definitely worse than Peyton's in '04 or Brady's this year, both of whom had Pro Bowl to Hall of Fame talent to work with at almost every offensive position.
Also, the fact that Marino produced statistics like that back when DBs were still allowed to mug receivers is simply astounding. I remember in 2004, the year those rule changes (or "changes in emphasis") went into effect, it was frequently mentioned as part of the reason for Peyton's record. These rule changes are still in place, but aren't thought of as often with Brady since football fans are used to them now.