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2004 Peyton vs. 2007 Brady vs. 1984 Marino

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Who had the best season?

Poll ended at Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:31 pm

2004 Peyton
14
35%
2007 Brady
11
28%
1984 Marino
15
38%
 
Total votes : 40

Re: 2004 Peyton vs. 2007 Brady vs. 1984 Marino

Postby PMoneyTKE » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:32 am

mattb47 wrote:Why is it so easy for Pats fans to overlook the fact that so much of Brady's numbers and TDs were manufactured by a coach that felt that he had to throw the ball all over the field late into games when pretty much any other team (including the 04 Colts) would be running the football? If Manning would have been throwing all year when they got up big, he could have had closer to 60 TDs on the year with the way he was effortlessly picking defenses to pieces all year. If you notice, Manning STILL had a better passer rating despite having 1 fewer TD and 2 more INTs. He had nearly the same amount of TD passes despite throwing 81 fewer passes during the season.

If you take the numbers Manning had and add those 81 attempts, this is what you would come up with based on his averages for that year:

390-578 (67.6%) for 5302 yards, 57 TDs and 12 INTs

Brady: 398-578 (68.9%) for 4806 yards, 50 TDs and 8 INTs

Or we could take it the other way and see how Brady would have done given his averages with 81 fewer attempts:

342-497 (68.9%) for 4134 yards, 43 TDs and 7 INTs

Manning: 336-497 (67.6%) for 4557 yards, 49 TDs and 10 INTs

I think it puts it into perspective a little bit.


Yikes, good luck to anyone that wants to debate matt. Lets just say i'm glad I agree with him :-b
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Re: 2004 Peyton vs. 2007 Brady vs. 1984 Marino

Postby A Fleshner Fantasy » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:40 pm

mattb47 wrote:Why is it so easy for Pats fans to overlook the fact that so much of Brady's numbers and TDs were manufactured by a coach that felt that he had to throw the ball all over the field late into games when pretty much any other team (including the 04 Colts) would be running the football? If Manning would have been throwing all year when they got up big, he could have had closer to 60 TDs on the year with the way he was effortlessly picking defenses to pieces all year. If you notice, Manning STILL had a better passer rating despite having 1 fewer TD and 2 more INTs. He had nearly the same amount of TD passes despite throwing 81 fewer passes during the season.

If you take the numbers Manning had and add those 81 attempts, this is what you would come up with based on his averages for that year:

390-578 (67.6%) for 5302 yards, 57 TDs and 12 INTs

Brady: 398-578 (68.9%) for 4806 yards, 50 TDs and 8 INTs

Or we could take it the other way and see how Brady would have done given his averages with 81 fewer attempts:

342-497 (68.9%) for 4134 yards, 43 TDs and 7 INTs

Manning: 336-497 (67.6%) for 4557 yards, 49 TDs and 10 INTs

I think it puts it into perspective a little bit.


Playing that what if game is fun isn't it? Of course you can say what if Peyton threw more or played week 16 but the question isn't what if, the question is who had the better year, and that's Brady.

Also, defenses knew the Patriots were throwing the ball all of the time, and still couldn't stop Brady. If anything, the fact that Manning had a running game works in his advantage, because play action actually had an effect, and people couldn't key off on stopping him, they had to pay attention to the run as well. Not to mention, who was stopping Manning from throwing every play? Certainly wasn't the coach...

Additionally, like i mentioned earlier, which you chose not to address, nobody beat Brady. It's on the QB to find anyway to win that they possibly can, and Brady did that. Yeah, Manning made the playoffs and even won a playoff game, but unless someone beats Brady, that's a HUGE advantage to Brady.

So sure, lets put it into perspective a bit. Let's say people had to respect the Patriot's running game and that a play action led to a wide open receiver most of the time, or that he had a back he could dump it off to and watch run for 30 yards. You can't figure out what the stats were, but I cannot believe that you are using the fact that defenses couldn't solely try to stop the pass against the Colts as a disadvantage for Peyton.
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Re: 2004 Peyton vs. 2007 Brady vs. 1984 Marino

Postby mattb47 » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:05 pm

Ok, some of those arguments are downright ridiculous. First off, while the Pats did go without a loss this year....to basically hand all those wins to Brady and say those were all him and that another QB with this team wouldn't have done that is ridiculous. Brady's defense this year is 10 times (at least) as good as the defense Peyton had in Indy in 2004 which obviously makes a HUGE impact in how many games a team wins. They had the #4 overall defense in the NFL and allowed the 4th fewest points. Compare that to the Colts 29th ranked defense overall and 19th ranked scoring defense and it's not even remotely close.

It's easy to write off the argument by made by saying that it's just the "what if" game but they both played enough football in their seasons for the averages to add up to a reasonably accurate number had they both thrown the ball the same amount of times. For how many times Manning was called upon to pass, he had MUCH better numbers than Brady in their respective years.

So....because the Colts were smart and decided to develop a running game rather than just not even attempting one for most of the time like the Pats....what Manning did was less impressive? I don't think that's a reasonable argument at all. For you trying to make the argument that teams didn't have to respect the play action like they did against the Colts, people tended to bite on a lot of those play action fakes....I don't think his PA plays were any less effective.

One thing here, is that Brady had the luxury of having easily one of the most talented WRs in NFL history (if not purely the most talented WR we've ever seen) to throw the ball up to whenever he felt like it. Almost half of Brady's TD passes went to Randy Moss. This is the same WR that has made nearly every QB he has played with (when he's actually decided to try) look like an all pro caliber player. Moss accounted for almost 1/4 of Brady's completions, over 1/4 of his yardage, and nearly 1/2 of his TDs. Manning managed to get 4 players with at least 50 receptions, 3 guys with over 1000 receiving yards, and 3 guys with at least 10 TD catches.

Yes, the question is who had the better year, but to disregard any outside circumstances and things such as passing attempts (which could have had an affect on total numbers) and things like one player not playing an entire game is rather ridiculous.
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Re: 2004 Peyton vs. 2007 Brady vs. 1984 Marino

Postby A Fleshner Fantasy » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:19 pm

My point wasn't solely about the PA fakes, that was just part of it. The other point I had was that teams could just do whatever they can to stop Brady because they don't need to worry about the running game.

Also, while Moss is great, Harrison, if being at all worse, is very very slightly worse. That being said, although the TD passes tended to go to Moss more, Welker was tied for first in the entire NFL in receptions, so it's not like he's just passing to Moss.

In addition,. you failed to address the fact that no one held Peyton back from calling a pass on every single play, although I guess you'll probably just call that ridiculous and then not further address it.

With regards to the rushing game, while Maroney was technically the starter at the beginning of the year, Morris the more effective back until he got hurt. When your most effective back gets hurt, of course your going to pass the ball.

What also hasn't been mentioned is the fact that Brady had 3 rushing TDs while Manning had 0 in 2004. While this isn't that much, it still makes the overall TD count go to 53-49 rather than 50-49. Along with that, Brady had 98 yards rushing to Manning's 38, despite the perception that Brady is one of the least mobile QBs in the game.
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Re: 2004 Peyton vs. 2007 Brady vs. 1984 Marino

Postby mattb47 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:52 am

A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:My point wasn't solely about the PA fakes, that was just part of it. The other point I had was that teams could just do whatever they can to stop Brady because they don't need to worry about the running game.

Also, while Moss is great, Harrison, if being at all worse, is very very slightly worse. That being said, although the TD passes tended to go to Moss more, Welker was tied for first in the entire NFL in receptions, so it's not like he's just passing to Moss.

In addition,. you failed to address the fact that no one held Peyton back from calling a pass on every single play, although I guess you'll probably just call that ridiculous and then not further address it.

With regards to the rushing game, while Maroney was technically the starter at the beginning of the year, Morris the more effective back until he got hurt. When your most effective back gets hurt, of course your going to pass the ball.

What also hasn't been mentioned is the fact that Brady had 3 rushing TDs while Manning had 0 in 2004. While this isn't that much, it still makes the overall TD count go to 53-49 rather than 50-49. Along with that, Brady had 98 yards rushing to Manning's 38, despite the perception that Brady is one of the least mobile QBs in the game.


The fact that teams knew Brady was going to throw most of the time was offset by how many screen passes and things he threw which were pretty much surefire completions for him and kind of offsets the defense dropping back in coverage to defend the pass.

There is NO way you can say that Harrison is only very very slightly worse from a pure talent standpoint. Harrison's game is based almost entirely on fantastic route running and great hands, but he needs a QB who can throw the ball to him on those great routes for him to be great. Don't get me wrong, he's a great WR, but Moss is the kind of guy that you just need to throw it in his general direction and he'll probably come down with it. Welker was only tied for 1st in receptions because he caught 1/2 of his passes at or behind the line of scrimmage on those short screen type passes....Moss was still the only Patriot with double digit TDs.

So....because Peyton didn't audible out of every run play and pass the ball like the Pats did that's an argument why he had a worse season? That makes a whole lot of sense....darn him for not being an exceptionally selfish player and calling his own number every play. Even in a career year for Manning he was still willing to turn around and hand the ball off to his other players....no way you can use that against him in saying he had a worse season.

Perhaps you could attempt to argue a little less like a Pats homer who can't possibly see how Brady didn't have the best season of all time....the Pats threw the ball a ridiculous amount very late into games when they had basically already broken the spirit of the opposing team and were up by more than a sufficient amount. I think Moss has more to do with this big season than alot of people think.....he's a physical freak and there were many many times that Brady just tossed the ball up to him and he went up and got passes that very few receivers in this league could have gotten to and caught. Brady running for a few TDs really doesn't have all that much bearing honestly (he actually only ran for 2 TDs this year anyway)....so instead of handing the ball off to a RB inside the 5 they decided to let Brady run for it....I don't think it should factor in too much into how great of a season he had. The fact that Manning had 3 years where he had over 100 yards rushing doesn't really make those years all that much better....he just had some opportunities where there were openings to run more.

Oh, and you can't really tell me that the Pats weren't going to throw the ball all over the field if Maroney was actually healthy all year. They had that spread offense in place and their gameplan ready long before Maroney went down and the only reason they went to the running game at all this year was when the weather was so poor that they couldn't pass the ball around like they did before. If Edge would have went down that year for the Colts, they would have used Rhodes....they wouldn't have changed their gameplan all that much just like they didn't this year when Addai went down and they had to use Keith.
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Re: 2004 Peyton vs. 2007 Brady vs. 1984 Marino

Postby theclefe » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:43 am

Not seeing Marino, I figured I'd chime in.

The fact that teams knew Brady was going to throw most of the time was offset by how many screen passes and things he threw which were pretty much surefire completions for him and kind of offsets the defense dropping back in coverage to defend the pass.


Edgrin James had 50 catches in 2004, and Stokley acted as Wes Welker lite in 2004, so Manning was certainly working the dumpoff and short passes just as much as Brady.

There is NO way you can say that Harrison is only very very slightly worse from a pure talent standpoint. Harrison's game is based almost entirely on fantastic route running and great hands, but he needs a QB who can throw the ball to him on those great routes for him to be great. Don't get me wrong, he's a great WR, but Moss is the kind of guy that you just need to throw it in his general direction and he'll probably come down with it.


I've seen Harrison make his fair share of miraculous catches. He is a superior route runner and has better hands than Moss. I think you're overstating the number of highlight catches he made this year. I'm not sure I can count more than 4-5 TD passes Moss caught that were so incredible no other receiver could catch. Assuming the Pats would score on a few of those drives on the next play anyway, and I would call it a wash. Moss is a marginally better scoring option, but Harrison was a better receiver.

On top of that, Manning had been working with his core receivers for more than one season. All of Brady's receivers were new, save the TE Watson. With no running game, similar but inexperienced receivers and despite an extra game, I would still take Brady.
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Re: 2004 Peyton vs. 2007 Brady vs. 1984 Marino

Postby A Fleshner Fantasy » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:54 pm

theclefe wrote:Not seeing Marino, I figured I'd chime in.

The fact that teams knew Brady was going to throw most of the time was offset by how many screen passes and things he threw which were pretty much surefire completions for him and kind of offsets the defense dropping back in coverage to defend the pass.


Edgrin James had 50 catches in 2004, and Stokley acted as Wes Welker lite in 2004, so Manning was certainly working the dumpoff and short passes just as much as Brady.

There is NO way you can say that Harrison is only very very slightly worse from a pure talent standpoint. Harrison's game is based almost entirely on fantastic route running and great hands, but he needs a QB who can throw the ball to him on those great routes for him to be great. Don't get me wrong, he's a great WR, but Moss is the kind of guy that you just need to throw it in his general direction and he'll probably come down with it.


I've seen Harrison make his fair share of miraculous catches. He is a superior route runner and has better hands than Moss. I think you're overstating the number of highlight catches he made this year. I'm not sure I can count more than 4-5 TD passes Moss caught that were so incredible no other receiver could catch. Assuming the Pats would score on a few of those drives on the next play anyway, and I would call it a wash. Moss is a marginally better scoring option, but Harrison was a better receiver.

On top of that, Manning had been working with his core receivers for more than one season. All of Brady's receivers were new, save the TE Watson. With no running game, similar but inexperienced receivers and despite an extra game, I would still take Brady.


The reason you aren't seeing Marino is because he had just under double the INTs of Brady. Matt- I'll respond to your comment later, right now I don't have the time to make a well thought comment.
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Re: 2004 Peyton vs. 2007 Brady vs. 1984 Marino

Postby scottaa1 » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:41 pm

Munboy wrote:Kind of funny. NE fans vote for Brady, Indy fans vote for Manning, almost everybody else votes for Marino. :-b


I've in Indianapolis since Manning's first year, and I'd of voted Marino if I'd gotten here before voting closed. Marino is my personal favorite QB of all time, and I think doing what he did in '84 was more impressive for the same reasons someone back on page one said, his weapons at the time weren't as impressive as the WRs out there currently. The Marks brothers were surely good, but I place more emphasis solely on Marino than I do current QBs. I was 14 during the 84 campaign, and I lived in South Florida for several years in the late 80's, which doesn't hurt. While I was unhappy to see Marino's 48 TD record fall, I took consolation that it was to Manning. So much for that.

Plus I stay away from any Manning/Brady Colts/Patriots debates because they usually just start arguments anyways.
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Re: 2004 Peyton vs. 2007 Brady vs. 1984 Marino

Postby theclefe » Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:20 pm

A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:The reason you aren't seeing Marino is because he had just under double the INTs of Brady. Matt- I'll respond to your comment later, right now I don't have the time to make a well thought comment.


I meant it in a much more literal sense.
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