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Martz in red and gold

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Re: Martz in red and gold

Postby dream_017 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:07 pm

drunkmonkey wrote:Actually, none of those fit the analogy I used.

OK, how about Art Monk playing in Philly...better for you
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Re: Martz in red and gold

Postby moochman » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:40 pm

dream_017 wrote:
SwiperNoSwiping wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Love this hire.


So did Lions fans a couple years back. :-b

I was going to say the same thing.


I agree with suhgamer. Just looks at the points and stats Roy, Calvin and KJ(any Det RB) put up. Sure he made names of McDonald and Furrey...he did the same with Az-Hakim in STL, but what about the big guys? The number 1 and 2 options. :-?


These are the key issues to look into for FFB purposes. Which WRs excelled, if you could call it that, with Martz in Detroit? Furrey and McDonald, who both ran short and mid-range crossing routes. Now look at Roy Williams and Cal Johnson. They underperformed in part becuase of their unwillingness (in the case with Roy) or inexperience (Cal) to run those routes. Roy wants to go deep and stay clean, and Cal looked like he had never run a crossing route before.
So who runs good crossing routes in SF and who likes going deep?
Gore could be different than KJ in that he is much more talented a runner and a very good pass receiver. Even when Martz goez el retardo and abandons the run, Gore could still get real involved in the passing game.
Should be interesting.
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Re: Martz in red and gold

Postby JasonSeahorn » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:17 pm

with all the talk of inside wides getting attention from martz, arnaz battle would make a great sleeper next year, especially for ppr leagues. he hasn't shown monster physical talent but he does the routes and is more reliable than djax catching passes.
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Re: Martz in red and gold

Postby Kensat30 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:06 pm

SwiperNoSwiping wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Love this hire.


So did Lions fans a couple years back. :-b


Hate to say it, but Martz was the sole reason that Detroit was respectable this year. Their offense AND defense both sucked in the past. Under Martz, there was a glimmer of hope on the offensive side of the ball and that hope delivered sporadically. Bottomline, for all the pass-happy talk, bad defensive teams just can't run the ball. Detroit was winning games passing the ball. The game has changed somewhat, just look at Manning a few years ago and Brady today. You can move the ball much more effectively throwing it down the field than carrying it down the field, it's all about execution.

I'm not even expecting 10 or even 8 wins with the players we currently have and Martz coming in first year as a new OC with a new system. But to deny that he is one of the best OC in the league to me is pretty short sighted. The guy is not called the mad scientist for nothing.
Last edited by Kensat30 on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Martz in red and gold

Postby Kensat30 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:10 pm

dream_017 wrote:
SwiperNoSwiping wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Love this hire.


So did Lions fans a couple years back. :-b

I was going to say the same thing.


I agree with suhgamer. Just looks at the points and stats Roy, Calvin and KJ(any Det RB) put up. Sure he made names of McDonald and Furrey...he did the same with Az-Hakim in STL, but what about the big guys? The number 1 and 2 options. :-?


Fans expect rookies to become stars overnight? Calvin Johnson got thrust into the spotlight in the late season and he was dropping as many as he caught. Rookies just don't come into the NFL and dominant even if Moss and Boldin were able to do it. Doesn't happen.

And I hate to say it, but Roy Williams is overrated as well. The guy is slow. He makes plays, but he has trouble getting open. He's a solid #1 WR, but his weaknesses also make you look at your #2, #3, and #4 options an awful lot, especially if they want to slide extra coverage his way. Take Roy out of the game and there is no one else in Detroit to hurt you except McDonald and Furrey. We saw that alot this year.
-----

Sf will probably be no different with the players we have right now. Jackson is decent but very flawed, Battle is a hardworker but barely fringe starter material and our QBs are less experienced than Kitna. But we almost resemebled the 2006 Oakland Raider's bed and breakfast offense last year and becoming a below average instead of worst in the league offense next year has me looking up. I know Martz can get us there, and if he can utilize frank Gore and get decent QB play, we could very well be average or above.
Last edited by Kensat30 on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Martz in red and gold

Postby Kensat30 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:11 pm

P.S. Bruce will retire a Ram. $2 million is nothing.
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Re: Martz in red and gold

Postby dream_017 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:59 pm

Kensat30 wrote:
SwiperNoSwiping wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Love this hire.


So did Lions fans a couple years back. :-b


Hate to say it, but Martz was the sole reason that Detroit was respectable this year. Their offense AND defense both sucked in the past. Under Martz, there was a glimmer of hope on the offensive side of the ball and that hope delivered sporadically. Bottomline, for all the pass-happy talk, bad defensive teams just can't run the ball. Detroit was winning games passing the ball. The game has changed somewhat, just look at Manning a few years ago and Brady today. You can move the ball much more effectively throwing it down the field than carrying it down the field, it's all about execution.

I'm not even expecting 10 or even 8 wins with the players we currently have and Martz coming in first year as a new OC with a new system. But to deny that he is one of the best OC in the league to me is pretty short sighted. The guy is not called the mad scientist for nothing.

I'm going to have to disagree that Martz and the offense was the reason for Detroit winning games. Martz and the offense was the reason Detroit lost games. Detroit feasted on turnovers early in the season by inexperienced QBs. What games did the offense win? The Thanksgiving game were they had 2 early opportunities inside the 10 yard line and came away with 2 FGs? Maybe it was the 10 points they put up against the Giants?
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Re: Martz in red and gold

Postby Timbathia » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:35 pm

Bad o-lines equals bad offenses. Doesnt matter how good an offensive coordinator you are. Detroits o-line wasnt any good, and neither is the 49ers. Martz might get some extra out of the 49ers offense with the range of plays/experience he brings, but like Detroit, a sow's ear all dressed up nice is still a sows ear.
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Re: Martz in red and gold

Postby My team is injured » Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:26 pm

just to point out, martz didn't exactly have the negative effect on guys like roy williams and KJ that some replies in this thread indicate...

Roy Williams put up a great year in 2006 with martz: 82 rec., 1310 yds, and 7 TDs... and though he was inconsistent after week 3 this season, his #s this year still projected to a respectable 85 rec., 1117 yds, and 7 TDs over 16 games...

as for KJ, in 2006, aside from the AZ game in which he got hurt in the 1st quarter, he averaged 109 total yds per game and had 8 TDs over 11 games... seems like solid #s in most league formats and in PPR leagues, he was easily top 10 (if not top 5) prior to his injury with 5.5 catches per game...

I think that for one reason or another, martz and detroit's offense started falling apart the 2nd half of the season and that played a part in kj and roy's decreased production and consistency... however, I don't anticipate that happening in san fran, at least in martz's 1st year...

once the depth chart sorts itself out over the offseason and into the pre-season, I'd probably upgrade every receiving option in san fran and I would probably keep gore at the same spot I would have him in a non-martz offense (though I would bump him in PPR leagues)... and I'd be confident playing gore on a weekly basis with the only exceptions against a few top run defenses like minnesota...
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Re: Martz in red and gold

Postby moochman » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:24 pm

dream_017 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Hate to say it, but Martz was the sole reason that Detroit was respectable this year. Their offense AND defense both sucked in the past. Under Martz, there was a glimmer of hope on the offensive side of the ball and that hope delivered sporadically. Bottomline, for all the pass-happy talk, bad defensive teams just can't run the ball. Detroit was winning games passing the ball. The game has changed somewhat, just look at Manning a few years ago and Brady today. You can move the ball much more effectively throwing it down the field than carrying it down the field, it's all about execution.

I'm not even expecting 10 or even 8 wins with the players we currently have and Martz coming in first year as a new OC with a new system. But to deny that he is one of the best OC in the league to me is pretty short sighted. The guy is not called the mad scientist for nothing.

I'm going to have to disagree that Martz and the offense was the reason for Detroit winning games. Martz and the offense was the reason Detroit lost games. Detroit feasted on turnovers early in the season by inexperienced QBs. What games did the offense win? The Thanksgiving game were they had 2 early opportunities inside the 10 yard line and came away with 2 FGs? Maybe it was the 10 points they put up against the Giants?


Gotta go with Kensat here, Dream. I think you may have fallen into the trap the Lions FO set out: That Martz is the reason we failed down the stretch. Wrong. The reason we floundered in the second half is that we ran out of teams that played putrid ball against us. While Martz never got the offense rolling and didn't run enough to satisfy most, he wasn't the one throwing behind receivers or simply slinging the ball around, that was Kitna. Martz wasn't the one dropping balls while running unfamiliar crossing routes or not finding a way to get open on deep routes, that was Cal Johnson. Martz wasn't the one falling down at the hint of a tackler, that was Tatum Bell. Martz wasn't he one who was too soft to run crossing routes or fight to get open on deep routes, that was Roy Williams. Methinks Martz system failed because the playmakers were unable or unwilling to run his plays.
Martz did have to be fired, though, simply becuase the Lions hired a head coach who's philosophy is a total opposite as Martz's. It was a partnership made in FFB: Hire the tough minded D line coach to instill a no quit attitude in the team and hire a offensive genius as OC to make up for the fact your head coach doesn't know anything about running an O. So it was Martz or Marinelli, and Lions tradition is to always fire the more qualified underling.

So it wasn't Martz fault, but he had to go. I hope he lights it up in Cisco.
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