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2nd Amendment

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby knapplc » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:27 pm

We all know the genie is out of the bottle at this point in America. Guns will never go away now. What those of us who are voicing displeasure about the way the second amendment is being utilized are saying is that the arguments they used back in the day to allow everyone to own a gun don't apply now, and they haven't applied for a long time. The problem is that everyone was so used to having guns around that it was unthinkable to get rid of them.

Further, and this speaks to your reference to England, Herd, this land needed "pacifying" or whatever you want to call the war against the Natives, not to mention against natural predators back when the pioneers were trekking across the middle of the continent. At some point, decades ago, maybe even as far back as the Civil War, we needed to realize that the average man having easy access to an arsenal of weapons simply wasn't necessary, and that the amendment allowing it had already run its course. That decision was never made, hence the problem we have now.

And don't get me wrong - I own guns, and for the very reason Herd and Nfl are bringing up (criminals). Someone comes to my house at 2am without an invitation, they're going to get cut in half, no questions. But that doesn't mean that I like the fact that I have to have guns, or that the bad guys all have them, too.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:34 pm

I'm confused a bit on the idea that we are immuned to the possibility of ever begin pressured into forming a militia. It certainly is not something that we should likely have to concern ourselves with, but isn't it a bit arrogant to believe we are beyond that? We are not immune to the barbaric tendencies of government, just because we've supposedly become more civilized. I'm not suggesting that I own my guns to join a militia, but simply suggesting that the constitution might not be as ridiculous as proposed.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby knapplc » Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:20 am

How open do you think the government is going to be to any kind of armed uprising? That's the rub. They'll let us have guns all we want. In the end, they control the most powerful military in the world. No militia is going to overthrow this government. We're well beyond that possibility. The best way to "overthrow" the U.S. government is to run for office, get elected and make change from within. That's about all that would ever work.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:42 am

knapplc wrote:How open do you think the government is going to be to any kind of armed uprising? That's the rub. They'll let us have guns all we want. In the end, they control the most powerful military in the world. No militia is going to overthrow this government. We're well beyond that possibility. The best way to "overthrow" the U.S. government is to run for office, get elected and make change from within. That's about all that would ever work.


Well, you're right, of course, but I don't think we ditch the privilege awarded us in the constitution just because, currently, a militia doesn't seem to be an effective option if things took an extreme turn for the worst. Again, the guns I own are for home protection and sport, not for this cause, but I appreciate the right that we have to use them for other reasons if need be. I think, if we alienate that possibility, there goes that one string we've always been cabable of pulling if the situation arose and you give the government one more confident leg to stand on. Simply having it in black and white I think is pretty powerful. We see countries like Iraq, and others, where its citizens were too scared of the administration to resist. Because of a simply sentence in our constitution I don't believe we can get to that point. I think Americans spend too much of their time feeling invincible/comfortable.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby m16a » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:50 am

knapplc wrote: That's the rub. They'll let us have guns all we want. In the end, they control the most powerful military in the world. No militia is going to overthrow this government..



Thats what they said about England, then look what happened ;-)
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Kilroy » Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:01 am

knapplc wrote:How open do you think the government is going to be to any kind of armed uprising? That's the rub. They'll let us have guns all we want. In the end, they control the most powerful military in the world. No militia is going to overthrow this government. We're well beyond that possibility. The best way to "overthrow" the U.S. government is to run for office, get elected and make change from within. That's about all that would ever work.


In today's political climate to get elected you have to basically surrender your ability to change much of anything.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby Nfl Fan » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:19 pm

knapplc wrote:And don't get me wrong - I own guns, and for the very reason Herd and Nfl are bringing up (criminals). Someone comes to my house at 2am without an invitation, they're going to get cut in half, no questions. But that doesn't mean that I like the fact that I have to have guns, or that the bad guys all have them, too.


Good point. It's a sad state of affairs when the nation/world are so full of evil that you have to arm yourself just in case.

Cut in half???

Hmmm. Sorry if I accidentally stumbled upon a Knapplc home video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c

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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby knapplc » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:30 pm

Kilroy wrote:
knapplc wrote:How open do you think the government is going to be to any kind of armed uprising? That's the rub. They'll let us have guns all we want. In the end, they control the most powerful military in the world. No militia is going to overthrow this government. We're well beyond that possibility. The best way to "overthrow" the U.S. government is to run for office, get elected and make change from within. That's about all that would ever work.


In today's political climate to get elected you have to basically surrender your ability to change much of anything.

True.
m16a wrote:
knapplc wrote: That's the rub. They'll let us have guns all we want. In the end, they control the most powerful military in the world. No militia is going to overthrow this government..

Thats what they said about England, then look what happened ;-)

Yes, but you can't count on your enemy fighting three separate wars at the same time every time you want to declare a revolution. The American Revolution was a pretty serendipitous thing. ;-)
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby houstonherdfan » Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:47 pm

knapplc wrote:We all know the genie is out of the bottle at this point in America. Guns will never go away now. What those of us who are voicing displeasure about the way the second amendment is being utilized are saying is that the arguments they used back in the day to allow everyone to own a gun don't apply now, and they haven't applied for a long time. The problem is that everyone was so used to having guns around that it was unthinkable to get rid of them.

Further, and this speaks to your reference to England, Herd, this land needed "pacifying" or whatever you want to call the war against the Natives, not to mention against natural predators back when the pioneers were trekking across the middle of the continent. At some point, decades ago, maybe even as far back as the Civil War, we needed to realize that the average man having easy access to an arsenal of weapons simply wasn't necessary, and that the amendment allowing it had already run its course. That decision was never made, hence the problem we have now.

And don't get me wrong - I own guns, and for the very reason Herd and Nfl are bringing up (criminals). Someone comes to my house at 2am without an invitation, they're going to get cut in half, no questions. But that doesn't mean that I like the fact that I have to have guns, or that the bad guys all have them, too.


I agree with everything you said. If the government could gauruntee me that criminals would not have access to guns, I would happily give up all of mine except my rifles that I hunt with. My shotgun, 270, 22 and 30-06.

I konw that is not possible so will keep those and the 3 pistols we have. Mine, my wife's and my son's. BTW we all have been trained how to properly use them and handler them should the need arise. also, all my son's friends parents know we keep loaded guns in the house and the 2 that don't like it have told us so and those 2 of my son's friends either don't come over or we don't allow them in the house. Everyone of my son's friend who come in the house have been to the range and at least shot one of my guns with their parents permission of course.

Not suprising asince I live in TX most of those kids have their own guns in the house. And I don't mind people from other states thinking we have the wild west mentality. They can have their criminals, we got too many here already. But thanks to Joe Horn and others we are weeding them out.
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Re: 2nd Amendment

Postby eaglesrule » Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:10 pm

Here are the things I don't get with the gun debate. And let me preface this by saying, it will be just as divisive as Roe v. Wade, and if both didn't deal with such important life issues, I'd say "great." I get so sick of hearing about Roe as constitutional, but with guns, the same defenders of Roe seem to suddenly forget that Gun ownership was expressly discussed, whereas we had to conjecture for Roe.

Gun ownership is in part defended by a right to protect your home and family. Well in the next breath, the NRA and gun advocates also chime in that they "do it safely." What does that mean? Not keeping it loaded, bullets stored in separate areas? If the chief reason is for defense, it seems weird that one would make such a production out of making the weapon viable, when it could be an issue of seconds, seconds where decisions get made on the fly.

Those against gun control poo poo the idea of having to rise up against the army of our government, as it would be futile. Yet, many of those same people argue that we are losing in asymmetrical warfare in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. While those insurgents are pretty well armed, its not SO much more than what real enthusiasts could get their hands on. (I think, I am prepared to be wrong here.) When you figure that the government turning on us would by necessity have to mute its full power (otherwise, their would be no subjects left to oppress), and how our army supposedly is pretty bad at insurgent and urban fighting, why am I to believe this isn't a valid argument?

Frankly, I would be content to trade handguns in for concessions on the abortion front (maybe no late-term, and reasonable parental notification), and move past this somewhat. Maybe the amendment is antiquated, and the second amendment has evolved beyond what we THINK is the original mandate. But I don't think anyone can say the first amendment hasn't also evolved past what the founding fathers would have been comfortable with either. I have zero desire to own a gun, and I am very uncomfortable with them. That being said, every human being first and foremost has an unquestioned right to defend himself and his family from physical harm, and if owning a gun does that, then so be it. Yea, we have police, but they don't have a mandate to protect the individual, just the aggregate, and I don't think human beings should need to essentially outsource the protection of their physical safety if they don't choose to.
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