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Re: TX State Board of Education approves Bible course in schools

Postby Madison » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:07 am

moonhead wrote:it's this sense of entitlement, and brash arrogance that christians have that turns a guy like me off.


It's the sense of entitlement, and brash arrogance of those who come to this country and then expect this country to change its way of life that turns a guy like me off. ;-)

Wouldn't be any different than giving a room in your house to someone, and then them demanding you change your way of life to suit their wants. Would you do it? Of course not. Yet that's exactly what is expected of America by a few of the people that you say turn you off. B-)
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Re: TX State Board of Education approves Bible course in schools

Postby moonhead » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:20 am

Madison wrote:
moonhead wrote:it's this sense of entitlement, and brash arrogance that christians have that turns a guy like me off.


It's the sense of entitlement, and brash arrogance of those who come to this country and then expect this country to change its way of life that turns a guy like me off. ;-)

Wouldn't be any different than giving a room in your house to someone, and then them demanding you change your way of life to suit their wants. Would you do it? Of course not. Yet that's exactly what is expected of America by a few of the people that you say turn you off. B-)

you're right. we should not focus on preparing students for the workforce. we should make sure they know how to bake a cake or memorize psalms instead of learning how to balance equations or how to communicate in another language.

this hard headed i'm not changing my ways attitude is bogus and one of the reasons that we are being passed by many countries in technology and education. this country is part of the world. the world is not part of this country. for the sake of advancement we need to strive to get better. we should at least be open to the idea of change.

i guess i just don't understand the resistance. and giving a room to someone in my house would require some compromise on both accounts. we're going to have to make adjustments, that is if you want to be a gracious host. otherwise, if you want to be a knucklehead and an unbending jerk...then that's your prerogative. it's just now how i'd choose to act.
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Re: TX State Board of Education approves Bible course in schools

Postby Madison » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:37 am

moonhead wrote:you're right. we should not focus on preparing students for the workforce. we should make sure they know how to bake a cake or memorize psalms instead of learning how to balance equations or how to communicate in another language.

this hard headed i'm not changing my ways attitude is bogus and one of the reasons that we are being passed by many countries in technology and education. this country is part of the world. the world is not part of this country. for the sake of advancement we need to strive to get better. we should at least be open to the idea of change.

i guess i just don't understand the resistance. and giving a room to someone in my house would require some compromise on both accounts. we're going to have to make adjustments, that is if you want to be a gracious host. otherwise, if you want to be a knucklehead and an unbending jerk...then that's your prerogative. it's just now how i'd choose to act.


I agree about the schooling, but for whatever reason you seem to keep overlooking the fact that this class is an elective. It's not required, just another subject that students can choose to learn about. It's really not worth the attention it is getting. :-b I'd think the more choices the better when it comes to high school kids learning...

We're being passed in many things by other countries because America has grown soft and lazy. Parents are not doing their jobs as parents. Schools are not teaching the basics, much less anything advanced. The list goes on and on. Having a few principals and standing on those principals is not a bad thing. We've gone to war many times to protect those principals and ideals. This country was founded because of those ideals for crying out loud. :-b Yet we're supposed to just throw some of those principals and ideals away because a few people moved here and expected the country to change to suit their wants? Doesn't sound right to me... ;-)

What resistance? Christians have basically been persecuted for quite some time now and you don't really hear them complain all that much even though they are the majority. Yet one little elective class has the country in an uproar? Can't you see just how silly the whole thing is and who are really the ones who cannot bring themselves to compromise? :-b
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Re: TX State Board of Education approves Bible course in schools

Postby moonhead » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:23 am

Madison wrote:
moonhead wrote:you're right. we should not focus on preparing students for the workforce. we should make sure they know how to bake a cake or memorize psalms instead of learning how to balance equations or how to communicate in another language.

this hard headed i'm not changing my ways attitude is bogus and one of the reasons that we are being passed by many countries in technology and education. this country is part of the world. the world is not part of this country. for the sake of advancement we need to strive to get better. we should at least be open to the idea of change.

i guess i just don't understand the resistance. and giving a room to someone in my house would require some compromise on both accounts. we're going to have to make adjustments, that is if you want to be a gracious host. otherwise, if you want to be a knucklehead and an unbending jerk...then that's your prerogative. it's just now how i'd choose to act.


I agree about the schooling, but for whatever reason you seem to keep overlooking the fact that this class is an elective. It's not required, just another subject that students can choose to learn about. It's really not worth the attention it is getting. :-b I'd think the more choices the better when it comes to high school kids learning...

We're being passed in many things by other countries because America has grown soft and lazy. Parents are not doing their jobs as parents. Schools are not teaching the basics, much less anything advanced. The list goes on and on. Having a few principals and standing on those principals is not a bad thing. We've gone to war many times to protect those principals and ideals. This country was founded because of those ideals for crying out loud. :-b Yet we're supposed to just throw some of those principals and ideals away because a few people moved here and expected the country to change to suit their wants? Doesn't sound right to me... ;-)

What resistance? Christians have basically been persecuted for quite some time now and you don't really hear them complain all that much even though they are the majority. Yet one little elective class has the country in an uproar? Can't you see just how silly the whole thing is and who are really the ones who cannot bring themselves to compromise? :-b

this isn't rome. christians have had their way for quite some time. and they still cry all the time. the war on christmas springs to mind. the resistance i'm speaking of is regarding language mainly. people are dead set in this country to not even attempt to learn another language. it's beyond absurd. it's not a threat to your culture. it's broadening your horizons and making yourself more marketable, for one, and a friendlier neighbor to other countries (or god forbid, even your neighbors).
no one is asking anyone to stop speaking english. i just don't understand how people can not see the benefit of learning other languages.
it's called growth.

this isn't directed at you mad, just generally speaking.
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Re: TX State Board of Education approves Bible course in schools

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:40 am

moonhead wrote:the resistance i'm speaking of is regarding language mainly. people are dead set in this country to not even attempt to learn another language. it's beyond absurd. it's not a threat to your culture. it's broadening your horizons and making yourself more marketable, for one, and a friendlier neighbor to other countries (or god forbid, even your neighbors).
no one is asking anyone to stop speaking english. i just don't understand how people can not see the benefit of learning other languages.
it's called growth.

this isn't directed at you mad, just generally speaking.


I don't think there is a rational person out there that would tell you being bilingual is a bad thing. Making it mandatory to learn a foreign language, however, is. We have kids in some schools who can barely read and you want them to learn a different language? It'd be nice, but that just isn't going to happen. Our priorities have to be adjusted.
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Re: TX State Board of Education approves Bible course in schools

Postby moonhead » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:50 am

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
moonhead wrote:the resistance i'm speaking of is regarding language mainly. people are dead set in this country to not even attempt to learn another language. it's beyond absurd. it's not a threat to your culture. it's broadening your horizons and making yourself more marketable, for one, and a friendlier neighbor to other countries (or god forbid, even your neighbors).
no one is asking anyone to stop speaking english. i just don't understand how people can not see the benefit of learning other languages.
it's called growth.

this isn't directed at you mad, just generally speaking.


I don't think there is a rational person out there that would tell you being bilingual is a bad thing. Making it mandatory to learn a foreign language, however, is. We have kids in some schools who can barely read and you want them to learn a different language? It'd be nice, but that just isn't going to happen. Our priorities have to be adjusted.

that's usually not the reason that i hear. and that one makes sense, and i completely agree.

i really don't have much interest in this thread anymore. we've pretty much derailed.
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Re: TX State Board of Education approves Bible course in schools

Postby Madison » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:52 am

moonhead wrote:this isn't rome. christians have had their way for quite some time. and they still cry all the time. the war on christmas springs to mind. the resistance i'm speaking of is regarding language mainly. people are dead set in this country to not even attempt to learn another language. it's beyond absurd. it's not a threat to your culture. it's broadening your horizons and making yourself more marketable, for one, and a friendlier neighbor to other countries (or god forbid, even your neighbors).
no one is asking anyone to stop speaking english. i just don't understand how people can not see the benefit of learning other languages.
it's called growth.

this isn't directed at you mad, just generally speaking.


No worries Moon. :-)

Other than the war on Christmas (because that started fairly recently and is at the core of the religion), can you name something else where Christians have finally spoken up with a loud voice about their persecution? There really hasn't been much of that, even though the religion is being trampled and removed left and right.

As to language, you're right, tons of Americans don't care to learn another language. I myself am guilty of that to some extent. I'm not interested in traveling the world, so I don't feel the need to learn a bunch of languages. However, as a child, I did live in Japan for 5 years due to my father being in the Air Force, and between my parents and my own need, I learned a respectable amount of Japanese. There are tons of people like me who feel the country is in charge, not an individual. I wanted/needed to communicate while in Japan, I learned Japanese. I did not expect them to cater to me and my language, it would be that arrogance and sense of entitlement you mentioned for me to expect the entire country of Japan to change to suit me and my wants. So why is it wrong to expect those that come to America to learn the language instead of having the entire country change to suit their wants? :-?

I do agree that being able to speak multiple languages is beneficial though. Even higher pay in some fields for bilingual people.

EDIT: Joel makes a good point though... How many people cannot even speak English correctly? You're on message boards, how often do you see mistakes with the misuse of "their", "there", and "they're"? That's second grade English (seriously - my boy was taught that in second grade), yet tons of people can't use the language that they NEED to know correctly. Makes it tough to convince anyone that forcing students to learn a foreign language is a good thing when no language is more important than the language of the country someone is living in... :-o

EDITX2 - Doh, your response came in while I was typing. :-b Blast you! :-b
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Re: TX State Board of Education approves Bible course in schools

Postby moonhead » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:58 am

Madison wrote:
moonhead wrote:this isn't rome. christians have had their way for quite some time. and they still cry all the time. the war on christmas springs to mind. the resistance i'm speaking of is regarding language mainly. people are dead set in this country to not even attempt to learn another language. it's beyond absurd. it's not a threat to your culture. it's broadening your horizons and making yourself more marketable, for one, and a friendlier neighbor to other countries (or god forbid, even your neighbors).
no one is asking anyone to stop speaking english. i just don't understand how people can not see the benefit of learning other languages.
it's called growth.

this isn't directed at you mad, just generally speaking.


No worries Moon. :-)

Other than the war on Christmas (because that started fairly recently and is at the core of the religion), can you name something else where Christians have finally spoken up with a loud voice about their persecution? There really hasn't been much of that, even though the religion is being trampled and removed left and right.

As to language, you're right, tons of Americans don't care to learn another language. I myself am guilty of that to some extent. I'm not interested in traveling the world, so I don't feel the need to learn a bunch of languages. However, as a child, I did live in Japan for 5 years due to my father being in the Air Force, and between my parents and my own need, I learned a respectable amount of Japanese. There are tons of people like me who feel the country is in charge, not an individual. I wanted/needed to communicate while in Japan, I learned Japanese. I did not expect them to cater to me and my language, it would be that arrogance and sense of entitlement you mentioned for me to expect the entire country of Japan to change to suit me and my wants. So why is it wrong to expect those that come to America to learn the language instead of having the entire country change to suit their wants? :-?

I do agree that being able to speak multiple languages is beneficial though. Even higher pay in some fields for bilingual people.

EDIT: Joel makes a good point though... How many people cannot even speak English correctly? You're on message boards, how often do you see mistakes with the misuse of "their", "there", and "they're"? That's second grade English (seriously - my boy was taught that in second grade), yet tons of people can't use the language that they NEED to know correctly. Makes it tough to convince anyone that forcing students to learn a foreign language is a good thing when no language is more important than the language of the country someone is living in... :-o

EDITX2 - Doh, your response came in while I was typing. :-b Blast you! :-b

how do we know that they aren't trying to learn english? it's difficult to master. in fact i believe it is the hardest language on the planet. just because some guy is speaking spanish to his brother or coworker doesn't mean he's not learning english. i just don't think anyone can say for certain that the immigrants are refusing to learn the language. i mean can you say for certain that an immigrant that you know has been here for some time and has not learned any english and won't attempt to engage anyone english speaking? i just don't know how anyone can know that from a snapshot in time. seems to me that it would have to be a study or at least someone with which you have frequent contact to know for certain that no progress was made.
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Re: TX State Board of Education approves Bible course in schools

Postby Madison » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:16 am

moonhead wrote:how do we know that they aren't trying to learn english? it's difficult to master. in fact i believe it is the hardest language on the planet. just because some guy is speaking spanish to his brother or coworker doesn't mean he's not learning english. i just don't think anyone can say for certain that the immigrants are refusing to learn the language. i mean can you say for certain that an immigrant that you know has been here for some time and has not learned any english and won't attempt to engage anyone english speaking? i just don't know how anyone can know that from a snapshot in time. seems to me that it would have to be a study or at least someone with which you have frequent contact to know for certain that no progress was made.


My response was due to what you said in your response about making it mandatory to learn a foreign language. If immigrants are learning the language, then there's no need to force students to learn the language of another country. Should be purely an elective class for those who want to learn.

If it is necessary for American students in America to learn the languages spoken in other countries, then the only reason to make that mandatory is if immigrants are coming here and not learning the language.

So you tell me. Either immigrants are learning and we have no need to mandate learning a foreign language, or the immigrants are not learning, which means we need to learn a foreign language in order to communicate in our own country. Which is it? :-b

And I'll agree that English is not an easy language to master. I make grammatical mistakes all the time and dictionary.com is a good friend of mine. :-b
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Re: TX State Board of Education approves Bible course in schools

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:20 am

moonhead wrote:how do we know that they aren't trying to learn english? it's difficult to master. in fact i believe it is the hardest language on the planet. just because some guy is speaking spanish to his brother or coworker doesn't mean he's not learning english. i just don't think anyone can say for certain that the immigrants are refusing to learn the language. i mean can you say for certain that an immigrant that you know has been here for some time and has not learned any english and won't attempt to engage anyone english speaking? i just don't know how anyone can know that from a snapshot in time. seems to me that it would have to be a study or at least someone with which you have frequent contact to know for certain that no progress was made.


Let's not be naive. You know as well as anyone that if you're not forced or asked to learn something, most people simply won't. You and I both know and have been in neighborhoods where you will have trouble finding someone who speaks English. To think that would happen if they were attempting to learn it is a bit hard for me to believe.
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