earnest graham will be a total bust

[moose_ffc]

I probably won't own Graham. I think he will get the goal line touches, but I just don't think he is that talented. I don't like spending early round picks on less talented guys.

[LS2throwed]

I probably won't own Graham. I think he will get the goal line touches, but I just don't think he is that talented. I don't like spending early round picks on less talented guys.

One could argue that if you can rack up 1200 total yards and 10 TD's at the NFL level that your pretty talented.

[deluxe_247]

One could argue that if you can rack up 1200 total yards and 10 TD's at the NFL level that your pretty talented.

i used to hear that argument about shaun alexander a lot. looks like he maybe was the product of a system after all. maybe graham could be also?

[SirPimpin08]

One could argue that if you can rack up 1200 total yards and 10 TD's at the NFL level that your pretty talented.

i used to hear that argument about shaun alexander a lot. looks like he maybe was the product of a system after all. maybe graham could be also?

considering he is in the SAME system, why would you NOT want him?

[moochman]

No personal hatred, heck truth is I don't even know Chucky on a personal level. I just hate head coaches like him who think that they are more important than the players.
Having a play book full of complicated plays is an extension of his ego and has less to do with the success of his offence than it does his need to show how much he is the offence.

He has a lot of plays because he's full of himself and doesn't value his players as much. Good lord, how am I supposed to respond to that? I guess by just letting you go off on your poorly-based tangent. Gruden does have a big ego, but where you take that and what you use that to base other "observations" on, goes well further than it should.

You need only look at the stellar group of QBs you mentioned. Though there were some of mediocre talent, Gruden never really supported any of them enough to fully develop their skills. You see, the QB isn't important, it's the plays Chuckie calls.

Really, care to break them down? Because I'm POSITIVE you didn't look in-depth at that and just hoped it would be accepted.

Brad Johnson: Played at a Pro Bowl caliber level, won a SB, and played his best football under Gruden. His skills weren't fully developed? LOL. But in 2004, he had very little left. His below-average career arm strength dropped off the table, as did his performance. He's done very little since, although I think he's still on with the Cowboys.

Brian Griese: Took over for Brad in 04, and played the best football of his career. Single-handedly kept us in games that year. Was given an extension that off-season and looked like our new QB for a long while. But then his play dropped back off to Brian Griese-like levels while Caddy and the defense carried our team to a 5-1 record, then he tore a knee ligament against the Dolphins. There went his chance.

Chris Simms: Took over for Griese in 05 and actually showed a lot more than people thought he had in him. Gruden was never a big fan, but with Simms' performance and Griese's age and injury, Gruden let Griese loose and handed Simms the job for the foreseeable future. Then Simms' low, slow release that was a problem against Washington in the playoffs caught on and his play declined for 3 games until he ruptured his spleen, and is finally back to close to where he was before this off-season.

Bruce Gradkowski: Took over for Simms. Was never supposed to be an NFL back-up or starter, but Luke McCown suffered a season-ending knee injury weeks into camp and Simms had the aforementioned ruptured spleen. Bruce is a 3rd string QB with smarts, but no arm whatsoever.

Garcia and McCown have faired pretty well so far.

So with Brad, it was basically the end of his line. Griese just couldn't keep up a solid level of play. Simms had quite the flaw in mechanics and no protection. Grads had very limited talent in the first place, he's AFL or CFL material.

But none of them were held back by Gruden's ego. Thats just a poor attempt to vilify the guy, which is such a surprise in this topic. LAME.

The dumbing down the game comment was aimed at the majority of coaches who crawl into a shell when the game is afoot. Those who play not to lose rather than unleash the talent of the team. It makes for dull unispired football that is all to common in this league.

How does that make sense though? Our offense since Gruden has been here has consisted mainly of a short passing game and a building power run game. Of course we're not going to change that when we have a lead. As previously mentioned, we don't really have the personnel to be an offense who takes chances. If thats what gets us in the position to win, why would we try to do something that doesn't suit us as well when we're up. This is especially funny (or ironic) because if you try to change it up and lose, you will get bashed relentlessly for going away from what worked/got you the lead in the first place. That's only happened about a billion times. Damned if you do....

Seemingly, your argument is so that it's more entertaining to you. In the grand scheme of things, I don't think that means a whole lot.

Quoting a head coach to support playing to win is like quoting the used car salesmen when talking about why a car is good. The fact is most football coaches are control freaks who trust more in their ability to keep a team in a game than they do to trust in their players to win games.

I'm not going to argue with you if you're that deeply rooted in your personal opinion. It's pointless saying "well, the other side of the coin is..." when you're seeing nothing but your own agenda.

The by-product is dull football.

We won a division last year essentially by week 12 with "dull" football. I'm sure our fan base, front office, players, etc loved it.

Brad Johnson, Griese, and Garcia were developed vets long before they went to Tampa. So name me the QBs that Gruden has developed. And save me the limited talent of these QBs since they are the ones Chucky wanted.

On dumbing down the game I guess I was of the understanding that you knew what I meant. It’s making plays as easy to execute as possible so that players with less-than latent can make the play. See power running game relies on making and following blocks, something any player can do. The same applies to the short pass game. Much easier to make a 6 yd pass work than a 30 yard pass. Especially when you have weak QB play. (BTW, not exactly the type of game plan that develops a QB much either).
And you fall right into the comfortable trap that it makes it easier to win games. Tampa didn’t win the division because of dumbing down the game as much as it did by having a great defensive season and a mediocre division play. And that’s fine. Good for you. I am not trying to take anything away from last season. You seem to want to make this a personal attack when it is more of a statement of a coaching style and how it is making for a duller brand of football.
Oh and you may have won your division, but I think someone else won the championship. If you look at all the teams that won since Dungy’s Tampa Bay team you’ll notice some subtle differences in style of play. They all had down field passing games and big play running games. Oddly enough, it seems that football that utilizes the talents of players is also championship football. Now that is more entertaining to me, not that that means a whole lot.

Now do try to understand that my opinion is simply based on my experience with the NFL as a whole and not a personal attack on Gruden or the Bucs. So remove your knee-jerk defense of Chucky. He needs not your help, his record stands on its’ own. Concentrate rather on your thoughts on an opinion and weather you have any valid response. Judging opinions as poorly-based, hate driven, and lame adds nothing to the thread or your opinion. Always better to stick to the concept of the opinion you wish to rebutt and try to give a more focused thoughtful reply.

[sappisgod]

Brad Johnson, Griese, and Garcia were developed vets long before they went to Tampa. So name me the QBs that Gruden has developed. And save me the limited talent of these QBs since they are the ones Chucky wanted.

Oh wow, the guy who prefers veteran QBs hasn't fully developed a QB. Astonishing. Luke McCown has come along nicely, although it remains to be seen if he or Josh Johnson will be given the shot next season when Garcia is out of the picture.

Gruden wanted those guys because they fit the offense. In no way is Brian Griese or Bruce Gradkowski close to an ideal starting QB candidate you want going into a season. Saying he chose the guys doesn't mean that they should be expected to perform at an above average level, because they aren't. But he got a career season out of Griese, the best football Brad Johnson ever played, and a Pro Bowl season out of a banged up Jeff Garcia who didn't even play but around 11 1/2 games.

Where's the problem again, mooch?

On dumbing down the game I guess I was of the understanding that you knew what I meant.

Ahhh...questioning the merit of anything you've said so far must be meant with a backhanded insult to my intelligence. Just get to the point already...

It’s making plays as easy to execute as possible so that players with less-than latent can make the play. See power running game relies on making and following blocks, something any player can do. The same applies to the short pass game. Much easier to make a 6 yd pass work than a 30 yard pass. Especially when you have weak QB play.

So basically any WCO that relies on a run game and doesn't go deep often is a "dumbed down" offense? Doing what we're best suited at after building up the OL with 1st and 2nd round draft picks and having one of the worst WR corps in the NFL, resulting in running more than fancy passes, is just saying we're too stupid to run anything else. Thats pretty vague logic, don't you think?

(BTW, not exactly the type of game plan that develops a QB much either).

Once more, Johnson, Griese, and Garcia all played at well above average levels. Simms played adequate, and Grads sucked. Aside from McCown, Simms is the only half-way decent young talent that Gruden has had to work with here. And he ruptured his spleen. Please humor me and give me something more than "he didn't develop anybody". You know, a little backing up your argument or responding to my counterpoint at all has never hurt anyone? It'd actually be greatly appreciated. I'd rather have an open discussion than you just repeating yourself....

And you fall right into the comfortable trap that it makes it easier to win games. Tampa didn’t win the division because of dumbing down the game as much as it did by having a great defensive season and a mediocre division play. And that’s fine. Good for you. I am not trying to take anything away from last season. You seem to want to make this a personal attack when it is more of a statement of a coaching style and how it is making for a duller brand of football.

And defensive teams with so-so passing games and a weak armed QB would want to go deep constantly? Again, you're saying you want to see more exciting football, even though thats not what we're suited for, AND the exact opposite is what is working quite well for us. I just don't think it makes any sense, none at all, whatsoever. Entertainment value vs. winning. Not so even trade off.

Also, let me note, I don't see that as a personal attack AT ALL. I still don't understand how you won't address my points, but you'll assume something different entirely....

Oh and you may have won your division, but I think someone else won the championship.

Shows what you know. Hey, how many points did Dungy's teams score in his last 3 playoff games? 18. How many did Gruden's team score in the Super Bowl season? 106 in a similar 3 game period. Different offense, different players, different outcome in Philly. It's crazy that Dungy built a great defense, but his offense was never even close to good enough to win a championship. Someone comes in and actually gets production out of the offense, and we win. The offense under Dungy would have never improved, and we wouldn't have won that championship....

If you look at all the teams that won since Dungy’s Tampa Bay team you’ll notice some subtle differences in style of play. They all had down field passing games and big play running games. Oddly enough, it seems that football that utilizes the talents of players is also championship football. Now that is more entertaining to me, not that that means a whole lot.

We're still in the process of developing a big play running offense. Make no mistake, we're getting there. But the down the field passing game is also just as overrated as it is successful. Oddly enough, the Rams never won another championship after Martz's crazy powerful passing attack took the reigns, then his Detroit teams floundered. The Colts had quite the impressive passing attack for years, tons of fun to watch, and yet they had that streak of never winning in the playoffs. The two (vertical passing games and winning big) don't always go hand in hand, so I fail to see the direct connection you're trying to make.

Now do try to understand that my opinion is simply based on my experience with the NFL as a whole and not a personal attack on Gruden or the Bucs.

I honestly think you're just an uninformed fan who knows little about the Bucs and goes by his personal dislike of Gruden and his style of offense. I don't care if you love the guy like a brother or can't stand his guts, the truth of the matter is you've made very vague statements and backed them up with little actual facts and knowledge of this situation. This isn't meant to come off as an insult to you, I'm not insinuating that you're dumb or anything like that. Just that you have a strong opinion backed up with little to no real information. Your failure to go into greater detail with any of the QBs or the offensive talent, etc just plays into that. You have conceded nothing, and still backed up nothing.

So remove your knee-jerk defense of Chucky. He needs not your help, his record stands on its’ own. Concentrate rather on your thoughts on an opinion and weather you have any valid response. Judging opinions as poorly-based, hate driven, and lame adds nothing to the thread or your opinion. Always better to stick to the concept of the opinion you wish to rebutt and try to give a more focused thoughtful reply.

I have no knee-jerk defense of Chucky. If someone says something against him that I disagree with or agree with, I'm going to state this and why. I don't see why I'm not allowed to say "I think you're wrong" in your whole rant about "opinion".

It's also funny that you haven't directly addressed the points that I think are quite valid, but somehow come back with "try to give a more focused, thoughtful reply". I, however, look forward to your continual side-steps of my counter-arguments....

[deluxe_247]

[deerayfan072]

[Dr. Duran Duran]

That looks almost like the volleyball scene in Top Gun.

[Popcynical]

I was gonna reply to the topic title with a 'your mom' joke... but decided it wasn't cafe friendly.