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earnest graham will be a total bust

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Re: earnest graham will be a total bust

Postby dgan » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:45 pm

deluxe_247 wrote:Image


Which country is that women's olympic swim team from?
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Re: earnest graham will be a total bust

Postby JasonSeahorn » Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:48 pm

dgan wrote:
Which country is that women's olympic swim team from?


Well, there were rumors that Soviet athletes in the 70's and 80's Olympics used to use a lot of testosterone.
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Thanks to deluxe_247 for sig, he is welcome to sail with the Captain too!

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Re: earnest graham will be a total bust

Postby moochman » Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:58 am

sappisgod wrote:
moochman wrote:Brad Johnson, Griese, and Garcia were developed vets long before they went to Tampa. So name me the QBs that Gruden has developed. And save me the limited talent of these QBs since they are the ones Chucky wanted.


Oh wow, the guy who prefers veteran QBs hasn't fully developed a QB. Astonishing. Luke McCown has come along nicely, although it remains to be seen if he or Josh Johnson will be given the shot next season when Garcia is out of the picture.

Gruden wanted those guys because they fit the offense. In no way is Brian Griese or Bruce Gradkowski close to an ideal starting QB candidate you want going into a season. Saying he chose the guys doesn't mean that they should be expected to perform at an above average level, because they aren't. But he got a career season out of Griese, the best football Brad Johnson ever played, and a Pro Bowl season out of a banged up Jeff Garcia who didn't even play but around 11 1/2 games.

Where's the problem again, mooch?

moochman wrote:On dumbing down the game I guess I was of the understanding that you knew what I meant.


Ahhh...questioning the merit of anything you've said so far must be meant with a backhanded insult to my intelligence. Just get to the point already...

moochman wrote:It’s making plays as easy to execute as possible so that players with less-than latent can make the play. See power running game relies on making and following blocks, something any player can do. The same applies to the short pass game. Much easier to make a 6 yd pass work than a 30 yard pass. Especially when you have weak QB play.


So basically any WCO that relies on a run game and doesn't go deep often is a "dumbed down" offense? Doing what we're best suited at after building up the OL with 1st and 2nd round draft picks and having one of the worst WR corps in the NFL, resulting in running more than fancy passes, is just saying we're too stupid to run anything else. Thats pretty vague logic, don't you think?

moochman wrote:(BTW, not exactly the type of game plan that develops a QB much either).


Once more, Johnson, Griese, and Garcia all played at well above average levels. Simms played adequate, and Grads sucked. Aside from McCown, Simms is the only half-way decent young talent that Gruden has had to work with here. And he ruptured his spleen. Please humor me and give me something more than "he didn't develop anybody". You know, a little backing up your argument or responding to my counterpoint at all has never hurt anyone? It'd actually be greatly appreciated. I'd rather have an open discussion than you just repeating yourself....

moochman wrote:And you fall right into the comfortable trap that it makes it easier to win games. Tampa didn’t win the division because of dumbing down the game as much as it did by having a great defensive season and a mediocre division play. And that’s fine. Good for you. I am not trying to take anything away from last season. You seem to want to make this a personal attack when it is more of a statement of a coaching style and how it is making for a duller brand of football.


And defensive teams with so-so passing games and a weak armed QB would want to go deep constantly? Again, you're saying you want to see more exciting football, even though thats not what we're suited for, AND the exact opposite is what is working quite well for us. I just don't think it makes any sense, none at all, whatsoever. Entertainment value vs. winning. Not so even trade off.

Also, let me note, I don't see that as a personal attack AT ALL. I still don't understand how you won't address my points, but you'll assume something different entirely....

moochman wrote:Oh and you may have won your division, but I think someone else won the championship.


Shows what you know. Hey, how many points did Dungy's teams score in his last 3 playoff games? 18. How many did Gruden's team score in the Super Bowl season? 106 in a similar 3 game period. Different offense, different players, different outcome in Philly. It's crazy that Dungy built a great defense, but his offense was never even close to good enough to win a championship. Someone comes in and actually gets production out of the offense, and we win. The offense under Dungy would have never improved, and we wouldn't have won that championship....

moochman wrote:If you look at all the teams that won since Dungy’s Tampa Bay team you’ll notice some subtle differences in style of play. They all had down field passing games and big play running games. Oddly enough, it seems that football that utilizes the talents of players is also championship football. Now that is more entertaining to me, not that that means a whole lot.


We're still in the process of developing a big play running offense. Make no mistake, we're getting there. But the down the field passing game is also just as overrated as it is successful. Oddly enough, the Rams never won another championship after Martz's crazy powerful passing attack took the reigns, then his Detroit teams floundered. The Colts had quite the impressive passing attack for years, tons of fun to watch, and yet they had that streak of never winning in the playoffs. The two (vertical passing games and winning big) don't always go hand in hand, so I fail to see the direct connection you're trying to make.

moochman wrote:Now do try to understand that my opinion is simply based on my experience with the NFL as a whole and not a personal attack on Gruden or the Bucs.


I honestly think you're just an uninformed fan who knows little about the Bucs and goes by his personal dislike of Gruden and his style of offense. I don't care if you love the guy like a brother or can't stand his guts, the truth of the matter is you've made very vague statements and backed them up with little actual facts and knowledge of this situation. This isn't meant to come off as an insult to you, I'm not insinuating that you're dumb or anything like that. Just that you have a strong opinion backed up with little to no real information. Your failure to go into greater detail with any of the QBs or the offensive talent, etc just plays into that. You have conceded nothing, and still backed up nothing.

moochman wrote:So remove your knee-jerk defense of Chucky. He needs not your help, his record stands on its’ own. Concentrate rather on your thoughts on an opinion and weather you have any valid response. Judging opinions as poorly-based, hate driven, and lame adds nothing to the thread or your opinion. Always better to stick to the concept of the opinion you wish to rebutt and try to give a more focused thoughtful reply.


I have no knee-jerk defense of Chucky. If someone says something against him that I disagree with or agree with, I'm going to state this and why. I don't see why I'm not allowed to say "I think you're wrong" in your whole rant about "opinion".

It's also funny that you haven't directly addressed the points that I think are quite valid, but somehow come back with "try to give a more focused, thoughtful reply". I, however, look forward to your continual side-steps of my counter-arguments.... :-D


You understand that you have backed up nothing tht you have said, and shown no desire to consider what I have said or try in any way to make or support an opposing view. I tell you why and how I think Chucky dumbs down the game then you say I am wrong while telling me that his players aren't talented enough to excute better plays. The very point I made-in dumbing down the game coaches will seek out less-than players. It's not that he molds his O to fit his players, but the opposite.
I ask you to cite an example of a QB he has developed and you give me McCown and how he is ready to take the next step. You base that on nothing more than opinion. Yet I don't support anything I say.
I tell you of the recent trend of Superbowl champs having high powered offences and you tell me that you don't see the connection...but not after first trying to tell me that Tampa is on the brink of their own high powered O. Supported by "Make no mistake, we're getting there". I guess that counts as "a strong opinion backed up with little or no real information". Seems to this uninformed fan that I am not the only one who knows little about what I speak.
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Re: earnest graham will be a total bust

Postby sappisgod » Tue Aug 05, 2008 3:22 pm

moochman wrote:You understand that you have backed up nothing tht you have said, and shown no desire to consider what I have said or try in any way to make or support an opposing view.


Yeah, sure. I haven't backed up any argument. I haven't gone into great detail about our offensive talent, our quarterbacks, the Dungy/Gruden situation.

Really, where do you get off saying I haven't backed up anything?

I have considered what you're trying to say, and I've come to the conclusion that your arguments haven't made any sense. You've stated:

1. Our offense should take more chances and go down the field more, when our QBs have by and large been terrible deep passers, our WRs are lacking, and we've been one of the worst pass blocking teams the past few years.

2. You don't like our offense because it's not entertaining football, which really it doesn't aim to be.

3. Gruden hasn't developed QBs when he's gotten the most out of them, and the only good young talent he's gotten (Simms) was handed the reigns to the offense completely uncontested in 2006, played 3 games, then wasn't in shape to play football for the next 2 years.

4. Gruden won with Dungy's team when Dungy's teams always failed int he playoffs because they could never score.

moochman wrote:I tell you why and how I think Chucky dumbs down the game then you say I am wrong while telling me that his players aren't talented enough to excute better plays. The very point I made-in dumbing down the game coaches will seek out less-than players. It's not that he molds his O to fit his players, but the opposite.


Tell me how our team was supposed to get better pass blockers and top notch WRs. Who should we have sought out while trying to rebuild a defense and terrible OL, and just getting out of cap trouble.

moochman wrote:I ask you to cite an example of a QB he has developed and you give me McCown and how he is ready to take the next step. You base that on nothing more than opinion. Yet I don't support anything I say.


Did I say he was ready to take the next step? No. I said he's come along nicely, as in his play last season showed (apparently that's not factual, but it's my opinion), and he is in line to be the starter next season. I'm not saying the guy is a good starter.

Also, I love how you continue to side-step the vast majority of what I've said. It's becoming very obvious that it's not worth my time to type out a "focused, thoughtful reply" when you're just going to cut out everything where I proved you wrong and repeat yourself....

moochman wrote:I tell you of the recent trend of Superbowl champs having high powered offences and you tell me that you don't see the connection...but not after first trying to tell me that Tampa is on the brink of their own high powered O.


Now you're just acting like you can't read. I said Tampa is on the brink of a very good running game. Is that what is considered "high powered offense" nowadays? We're still very far away from developing a passing game. But I guess trying to improve either facet of the game is playing into your argument that thy are trying to be a "high powered O". Not really.

moochman wrote:Supported by "Make no mistake, we're getting there". I guess that counts as "a strong opinion backed up with little or no real information". Seems to this uninformed fan that I am not the only one who knows little about what I speak.


How so? We've improved to 11th in the league in rushing with our 3rd string back getting most of the carries, and our starting offensive line at the moment are going into their 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, and 6th seasons. Would you say a running game that was powered mainly by two 2nd year offensive linemen (Davin and True) and a rookie offensive lineman (Sears), isn't on the rise?

See, this is what I'm getting at. Our run game was quite effective (statistically, not my opinion) last season with our 3rd string RB (fact, not opinion) and our line is young (fact, not opinion), which is to say they're "getting there". How is that subjective as you try and make it seem? And please, don't hide away from this one either. It's getting older than the QBs that Gruden prefers..... ;-7
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Re: earnest graham will be a total bust

Postby moochman » Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:04 pm

Sapp I never ran from anything. Just as you have never gotten what I was saying. Did you ever stop to consider that what I was spoke of the dumbing down in football I was using Gruden as an example of what I meant? It was not a personal attack against your team, yet any argument you put up focuses more on the Bucs success than it does the point of my original statement. So you are offering up nothing toward that end.
You brought up McCown in response to what QB has been developed.
Your running game success replies supports my original claim, as does your WR, OL retort. But you'd have to look at what I say rather than defend your team.
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Re: earnest graham will be a total bust

Postby sappisgod » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:23 am

moochman wrote:Sapp I never ran from anything. Just as you have never gotten what I was saying. Did you ever stop to consider that what I was spoke of the dumbing down in football I was using Gruden as an example of what I meant? It was not a personal attack against your team, yet any argument you put up focuses more on the Bucs success than it does the point of my original statement.


The "dumbing down" of football was just one part of what I disagreed with you about. But also statements about his choice in QBs and the success of the SB team being credited to Dungy. You went off to different points, and I continued to disagree with you. This isn't to say I completely missed your original point.

Also, on Gruden as a whole, his offense in Oakland was pretty "high-powered". Then again, he had a good QB, good WRs, and a good pass blocking OL. Here recently, he's relied more on a power running game. The difference in personnel seems to be more at work than the individual's perceived "philosophy".

moochman wrote:So you are offering up nothing toward that end.
You brought up McCown in response to what QB has been developed.


But you're saying that this coach, notorious for using veteran QBs, hasn't developed a QB. I'm saying he's gotten the most out of the veterans, and his only notable young talent at QB was given the reigns and promptly put out of football shape for whole years. McCown is just a project who is coming along nicely.

You're trying to make what has actually been a strong point for Gruden look like a weakness, when it really hasn't. He's gotten more than expected out of his QBs, especially Griese and Johnson.

moochman wrote:Your running game success replies supports my original claim, as does your WR, OL retort.


My OL retort was in reply to your argument that my statement was backed up by nothing, when there is no support to the argument that the running game isn't on the rise, but there is to the opposite.

moochman wrote:But you'd have to look at what I say rather than defend your team.


The majority of what you've been saying has been SPECIFICALLY against the Bucs or Gruden. Even if it is an example to prove a larger point, if you are incorrect on your statements about your EXAMPLE, doesn't that have a bearing on your argument as a whole? Or do you not understand that? ;-7

But allow me to save you the time, "you're still not getting it"....Hey, that was pretty easy, I see why you use it all the time.....
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Re: earnest graham will be a total bust

Postby mystykoekaki » Wed Aug 06, 2008 5:14 pm

Wasn't Fargas the ONLY rb that rushed for more yards in the second half of last year? .... yeh, I think Ernest Graham will do just fine!
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Re: earnest graham will be a total bust

Postby jbfflbeast » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:07 pm

LS2throwed wrote:Graham is going to have a very strong year, I don't really buy the argument Dunn can make him go from finishing as a top 10 back last year to a dud, I guess everyone has forgotten how old Dunn looked last year, so his best days are behind him, he is far from a guy to worry about taking production away...Graham can catch out of the backfield, will garner all of his goal line carries, Garcia is a game manager at this point so the emphasis will be running the ball, and he should see his carries over 20 at least with some receptions thrown in.


Fact is he is being undervalued, he is going late 3rd rd in drafts, after guys like Maroney who I am pretty positive Graham will outscore...I'm usually not the one to jump on the one year hype trains because I love consistency, but people are really sleeping on this guy, watch some film of him, look at the stats, he put up some incredible numbers the 2nd half of the season and I expect his role to be just as large.


Agree with this. Not to mention that the Bucs have a damn good (and young) oline. He'll be very good in PPR league so long as the reports of Caddy possibly coming back this year are false (I don't see it happening).
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Re: earnest graham will be a total bust

Postby jbfflbeast » Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:08 pm

biju wrote:
onnestabe wrote:I drafted him in one league as my 3rd RB (only start 2).
I think all of those positives about Caddy for this year were a smoke screen from the cheap-o's down in Tampa who were trying to lower the contract Graham signed. It worked, and Caddy will soon be on the PUP, then IR this year.


That too is what I believed regarding Caddy, but then I saw a couple of reports saying that he would play this year.
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