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Re: Prime example of why the Rooney Rule is idiotic.

Postby stomperrob » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:33 am

doublej73 wrote:Are they going to create a "Rooney Rule" for players too? It seems that whites, hispanics and asians are very under-represented on NFL 53 man rosters. How about requiring that at least one white, hispanic and asian get the opportunity to try out for every one of the 22 starting positions, plus kicker and punter.

Sounds pretty silly doesn't it? Makes about as much sense as the Rooney Rule.

Not even going to bring up the NBA or NHL.


Your argument is specious and wholly without merit. For it to have any validity, you would have to show some historical record of white players being under-represented in the NFL solely based on their skin color and not because of their skill set. I doubt even you believe that to be true - as such, there is no past behavior in need of remedy.

How do we know there is a need for the Rooney Rule, that there was/is a problem in minorities being under-represented in coaching (and GM positions) in the NFL. Well, because the owners themselves admitted to it and introduced the Rooney Rule on their own initiative - they recognized their own recalcitrance in hiriing minorities. Hence by their own admission and actions, they established a prima facie case for the need.

Your argument fails on all levels! :-t
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Re: Prime example of why the Rooney Rule is idiotic.

Postby doublej73 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:06 pm

Did the owners really admit to racist hiring practives or did they just feel the pressure to be politically correct? Do teams really say "let's hire this white guy and go 6-10, otherwise we have to hire this black guy and go 12-4." Do you really think these NFL owners are not going to hire the best people they can find?

With regards to quotas and diversity we always hear phrases like "we want employees that look like America." i.e. if there are not enough minorities in that profession we need to hire more. I find this offensive because if white Americans are over represented then there are cries for more minority hiring, Jessie Jackson whines on TV etc. etc. When white Americans are under represented no one says anything. Its a double standard, its reverse racism, plain and simple.

African Americans make up around 12 or 13 percent of the total population. 12% of 32 teams would equal 3.84 black head coaches if we wanted an NFL that "looked like America" A couple years ago there were 5 or 6 black NFL coaches at one time. So at that point they were over represented. No cries for that. I find it offensive when minorities get unfair advantages that the rest of us don't.

Look at the case with federal road contracts (I think, its some type of federal contracts) 10% HAVE to be awarded to minority owned companies. If you reversed and said 90% of contracts have to be awarded to non minority companies there would be howls of outrage. But as it stands, minority companies can bid for 100 % of the projects, non minority companies can bid for the other 90%. Sounds like discrimination to me!

Look, it sucks that black Americans were disriminated against in terrible ways in the 1960s and before, but discriminating against non minorities today doesn't make it right, especially since most of us weren't even alive then.

When Martin Luther King talked about judging a man not by the color of his skin but the content of his character, it sounds to me like he wants an equal chance for everyone, not special advantages for some. The Rooney Rule is special advantages for some, plain and simple.
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Re: Prime example of why the Rooney Rule is idiotic.

Postby 2ksports » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:29 pm

doublej73 wrote:Did the owners really admit to racist hiring practives or did they just feel the pressure to be politically correct? Do teams really say "let's hire this white guy and go 6-10, otherwise we have to hire this black guy and go 12-4." Do you really think these NFL owners are not going to hire the best people they can find?

With regards to quotas and diversity we always hear phrases like "we want employees that look like America." i.e. if there are not enough minorities in that profession we need to hire more. I find this offensive because if white Americans are over represented then there are cries for more minority hiring, Jessie Jackson whines on TV etc. etc. When white Americans are under represented no one says anything. Its a double standard, its reverse racism, plain and simple.

African Americans make up around 12 or 13 percent of the total population. 12% of 32 teams would equal 3.84 black head coaches if we wanted an NFL that "looked like America" A couple years ago there were 5 or 6 black NFL coaches at one time. So at that point they were over represented. No cries for that. I find it offensive when minorities get unfair advantages that the rest of us don't.

Look at the case with federal road contracts (I think, its some type of federal contracts) 10% HAVE to be awarded to minority owned companies. If you reversed and said 90% of contracts have to be awarded to non minority companies there would be howls of outrage. But as it stands, minority companies can bid for 100 % of the projects, non minority companies can bid for the other 90%. Sounds like discrimination to me!

Look, it sucks that black Americans were disriminated against in terrible ways in the 1960s and before, but discriminating against non minorities today doesn't make it right, especially since most of us weren't even alive then.

When Martin Luther King talked about judging a man not by the color of his skin but the content of his character, it sounds to me like he wants an equal chance for everyone, not special advantages for some. The Rooney Rule is special advantages for some, plain and simple.


I think a lot of white people feel self-righteous when making this argument, but I'll tell you why this argument doesn't work for me.

White people like to refer to meritocracy as the basis of their argument, and they feel that people should be judged on the basis of their performance only, without regard to anything else.

White people argue that to give blacks an advantage is inherently racist to whites, because we are not truly "equal." Oftentimes, an white man will be denied a job if a minority is equally qualified, and they will b-tch about it.

I've even heard white people say to be called "cracker" is the same as calling a black person the N-word.

This all sounds good in theory, but it's not true. I'll work from the most extreme example on in.

It starts with slavery. White people historically used the n-word to convey racial superiority and dominance blacks. While both "cracker" and the N-word are used to put down the other person, only 1 word carries the weight and assumption of one race being greater than another racist. This is why "cracker" is not racist, it is simply a word that can only be applied to white people to differentiate race with a negative connotation, but in no way does it imply racial dominance of one race over another. The very definition of racism invalidates this claim, and what it comes down to is the simple fact that it messes a black person up a lot more to be called the N-word by a white man than a white man feels about being called cracker by a black man.

Now the next part is about employment. Again, blacks were set pretty far back. Only recently has the world started coming around, and the equal opportunity movement started. I can point to many statistics that prove without a shadow of doubt that there is still no racial equality. You need to look no further than school districts to see the perpetual cycle of failing generations of blacks and Hispanics. The only way you can argue that everyone truly has an equal opportunity is if you believe blacks and Hispanics are simply less intelligent by default than whites, to which we all know the obvious answer (assuming we are not racist). So now, taking into account what a black person has to go through just to arrive at the same job interview as a white man, you can see that while their merits may be equal, generally, the black person faced more obstacles to get there. To deny the black man that opportunity is to stall the progress of the minority movement, and believe me, we are far from equality. The cyclic perpetuation of blacks in ghettos and failed school systems needs to be fixed, and affirmative action is a very important aspect of that.

I think some of the comments you made, while it seems logical on the surface, do not hold water and examine the context of racism. You also grossly misinterpreted MLK's speech. I think your words are everything I believe to be dangerous to society because they are very logical without supporting context.

The only thing worse than a white man making your type of argument is a black man who took advantage (rightfully) of affirmative action opportunities telling the world that he didn't need it and feels disrespected that he got interviewed as a "token" black candidate. Any black person who says that makes it that much harder for their race to reach true equality. Our society is far from it, and that's why I support the Rooney Rule. I also think that it is very possible a black man will be more qualified than Haslett to run the team, and it is smart for the Rams to do a round of interviews before making a final decision.
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Re: Prime example of why the Rooney Rule is idiotic.

Postby stomperrob » Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:38 pm

doublej73 wrote:Did the owners really admit to racist hiring practives or did they just feel the pressure to be politically correct? Do teams really say "let's hire this white guy and go 6-10, otherwise we have to hire this black guy and go 12-4." Do you really think these NFL owners are not going to hire the best people they can find?

With regards to quotas and diversity we always hear phrases like "we want employees that look like America." i.e. if there are not enough minorities in that profession we need to hire more. I find this offensive because if white Americans are over represented then there are cries for more minority hiring, Jessie Jackson whines on TV etc. etc. When white Americans are under represented no one says anything. Its a double standard, its reverse racism, plain and simple.

African Americans make up around 12 or 13 percent of the total population. 12% of 32 teams would equal 3.84 black head coaches if we wanted an NFL that "looked like America" A couple years ago there were 5 or 6 black NFL coaches at one time. So at that point they were over represented. No cries for that. I find it offensive when minorities get unfair advantages that the rest of us don't.

Look at the case with federal road contracts (I think, its some type of federal contracts) 10% HAVE to be awarded to minority owned companies. If you reversed and said 90% of contracts have to be awarded to non minority companies there would be howls of outrage. But as it stands, minority companies can bid for 100 % of the projects, non minority companies can bid for the other 90%. Sounds like discrimination to me!

Look, it sucks that black Americans were disriminated against in terrible ways in the 1960s and before, but discriminating against non minorities today doesn't make it right, especially since most of us weren't even alive then.

When Martin Luther King talked about judging a man not by the color of his skin but the content of his character, it sounds to me like he wants an equal chance for everyone, not special advantages for some. The Rooney Rule is special advantages for some, plain and simple.


And that's all the Rooney Rule gives them, an equal chance, an interview, a "foot in the door" to prove their case they might not other wise have had. There is NO QUOTA in the Rooney Rule, NO minimum % of minorities that must be hired, it just ensures they get a fair shot at the job, something the owners themselves admit they did not provide in the past, something they wish to rectify. Damned if they do, damned if they don't - the owners were roundly criticized for not hiring enough minorities, admitted the problem, and tried to solve it without resorting to the dreaded affirmative action, and are roundly criticized for that as well. You're really making a mountain out of a molehill on this.

Of course owners are going to hire the best candidate, this just expands the list of candidates, something the owners admit they were remiss in doing, and in doing so, overlooked candidates who in some cases may have been better qualified than those hired at the time. So it can be a win-win situation for both sides oft times.
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Re: Prime example of why the Rooney Rule is idiotic.

Postby moochman » Wed Oct 29, 2008 10:55 am

dgan wrote:I never agree with government mandated affirmitive action, but if an organization such as the NFL chooses to police itself, I am all for it. Sure, it isn't perfect, but I think you guys are working on misguided assumptions.

You're all assuming that those in the NFL making these decisions are all like you. Unbiased, non-discriminatory, and certainly not racist. But the problem the NFL is trying to overcome is that these 60-70 year old white males that own these clubs grew up in the 50s and 60s, raised by parents who grew up in the 20s and 30s. My dad is just over 50, and while he isn't racist, I am surprised how warped his thinking is because of his background and how he was raised.

So you've got this good ole boy club of owners that maybe aren't intentionally trying to be discriminatory, but the feeling was they weren't 'comfortable' interviewing minorities. Not necessarily because of color, but because most white coaches have been coaching for 20 years in high school or college, and their dads were coaches, and their grandpas were coaches. The previous generation of blacks likely did not have that opportunity so they are basically establishing their first generation of coaching 'heritage' in our day right now. And they can't begin that if they aren't even being looked at.

So, I agree with everything that is said about the problem with the rule. But it is certainly better than nothing and, I think in most cases, has the intended effect. IMHO of course.


I look at the owners you speak of as being part of the impetous for the player hating that is taking place right now. I wonder if athletes were white if the owners wouldn't be more likely to turn a blind eye to what they would likely call "boys being boys" misbehaviors.

The Rooney rule is just PC pandering by the league. Look at the Lions. They go from one inept head coach to another without ever running across a black canidate that is better than a Marinelli. Really? C'Mon. There is no way that NimRod Marinelli would have ever even been thought of as a Lions head coach if he were black. Not that he should have, he sucks in any color.
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Re: Prime example of why the Rooney Rule is idiotic.

Postby WeekSixteen » Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:10 am

StomperRob,

I actually found myself agreeing with you most of the time. But do you admit that policies like the Rooney rule, or some colleges or employment places that have quotas they try to fill, that policies that do take race into account, if they last to long will engineer a reverse form of racism. I believe for the generation after me (I'm 23) policies like this will only serve to keep "racism" an issue. In Minnesota I've seen no racism, and as a white male I could care less and I'm tired of hearing it even mentioned. Granted I'm sure there are cases and you make a convincing argument but if those policies last to long they will defeat their intended purposes.
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Re: Prime example of why the Rooney Rule is idiotic.

Postby 2ksports » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:18 pm

Jason X wrote:StomperRob,

I actually found myself agreeing with you most of the time. But do you admit that policies like the Rooney rule, or some colleges or employment places that have quotas they try to fill, that policies that do take race into account, if they last to long will engineer a reverse form of racism. I believe for the generation after me (I'm 23) policies like this will only serve to keep "racism" an issue. In Minnesota I've seen no racism, and as a white male I could care less and I'm tired of hearing it even mentioned. Granted I'm sure there are cases and you make a convincing argument but if those policies last to long they will defeat their intended purposes.


If you take into account the average childhood life and school system a black person starts out with, most blacks will never have equal opportunity if these rules are in effect. Basically, all you would see are white and asian people in most schools.

I agree with you that "if these policies last too long" they can defeat their intended purposes. However, we are not even close to that point yet. There is still plenty of segregation, and the opportunities in white school districts vs black school districts is gaping.
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Re: Prime example of why the Rooney Rule is idiotic.

Postby stomperrob » Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:50 pm

Jason X wrote:StomperRob,

I actually found myself agreeing with you most of the time. But do you admit that policies like the Rooney rule, or some colleges or employment places that have quotas they try to fill, that policies that do take race into account, if they last to long will engineer a reverse form of racism. I believe for the generation after me (I'm 23) policies like this will only serve to keep "racism" an issue. In Minnesota I've seen no racism, and as a white male I could care less and I'm tired of hearing it even mentioned. Granted I'm sure there are cases and you make a convincing argument but if those policies last to long they will defeat their intended purposes.


I am dead set against quotas, the only reason I support the Rooney Rule is because of the fact there is NO QUOTA as I keep stating ad nauseum. Teams are free to hire whomever they choose and can be 100% white without fear of reproach.
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Re: Prime example of why the Rooney Rule is idiotic.

Postby stomperrob » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:11 pm

moochman wrote:I look at the owners you speak of as being part of the impetous for the player hating that is taking place right now. I wonder if athletes were white if the owners wouldn't be more likely to turn a blind eye to what they would likely call "boys being boys" misbehaviors.

The Rooney rule is just PC pandering by the league. Look at the Lions. They go from one inept head coach to another without ever running across a black canidate that is better than a Marinelli. Really? C'Mon. There is no way that NimRod Marinelli would have ever even been thought of as a Lions head coach if he were black. Not that he should have, he sucks in any color.


Your well known hatred of the owners blinds you to reality. Easy to throw out a wild claim like the owners would be more lenient towards white players, a lot tougher to back it up, but then you don't even try to back it up, you just keeping throwing lots of mud and hope eventually some of it sticks. Your statement is disingenuous at best, and a bold faced lie methinks.

The NFL is made up primarily of black players, 70 % to be exact. And they do do seem to get in more trouble than their white counterparts - is that the owners fault? I think you need to look somewhere other than the owners for the reason the black players seem to run afoul of the law - from the backgrounds many of them come from to the "gangsta" culture so many like to emulate when the big bucks start to flow in.

I suppose the NFL owners are the ones responsible for the fact that blacks make up 49% of the prison population while comprising only 13% of the general population???

I know the owners are inherently evil and you would like to see them eliminated - maybe the players could just all get together in some field somewhere and play, since there wouldn't be any stadiums. And everyone likes to criticize Gene Upshaw for having been a lackey of the owners, but under him the players share of the revenue went from 27% to 65% - and it is felt the reason Paul Tagliabue has not made it into the Hall of Fame is because he caved into the NFLPA too much and not the other way around!

I won't try and defend the Fords - they come by their racism naturally, founder Henry Ford was decorated by admirer Adolf Hitler n 1938 for his anti-semitism.

The NFL did not want to degenerate into what the NBA had become with its bad boy image and loss of fan support and took measures to prevent that - sanity and common sense prevailed in th NFL. Even the NBA eventually saw the error of its ways and cleaned up its image.

And your claim of "pandering" is an insult to the Rooney family and the good things they have tried to do in this league including being at the forefront of minority hiring. Owners are not always the boogeymen you make them out to be.
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Re: Prime example of why the Rooney Rule is idiotic.

Postby dgan » Wed Oct 29, 2008 7:32 pm

The bottom line here is that this is SELF imposed by the owners (at least the majority). They decided to do this. So to in any way insinuate that they are being 'forced' to do anything is simply inaccurate. I believe that in many walks of life, the NFL included, that racial division will continue to decline - never disappear. I hope by the time my daughter is my age they won't be talking about "making sure" and "giving equal opportunity" to minorities hardly at all. I agree that any time you bring attention to the matter, even with good intentions, you are stimulating racial awareness. We don't need more racial awareness - ultimately, we need color blindness. And that movement has been very successful in the last two generations.

Unfortunately, those who did not grow up in a society preaching color blindness (ie. 70 year old white billionaires) still need some awareness. It is for their benefit they imposed this rule on themselves...not because 25 year old football fans are insensitive to black coaches. Hopefully, once all the NFL teams are owned by those who grew up in the 80s or later, we won't need the Rooney rule anymore.

I'm sure by then we'll have another totally different and just as disturbing problem. :-°
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