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"League Points" Scoring System?

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Re: "League Points" Scoring System?

Postby FFisLife » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:10 pm

dream_017 wrote:.... or maybe some kind of 3 week playoff where every team plays each other and the one with the most "League points" win the championship

:-t


That's actually not a bad idea but would only work if you had 4 teams.

The Lung wrote:.... While that may seem intuitively strange to use the Victory Points system in the regular season but not in the playoffs, everyone in the league has so far been happy with the setup and not voiced any desires to change. ;-D


I'm on the fence about this. On one hand you can make the argument for not using the Victory Points system in the playoffs for the simple fact that it mimics real football. Let's say you're the Patriots and you score 42 points and the team you happen to be playing is the Colts who score 45 points, obviously you lose. Yet as the Patriots, when you look at the scores from the rest of the playoff teams that day that played, you see that the highest scoring game, besides your game, was 28 -24. You realize that you would have beat any other team that day had you not drawn the Colts to play that week.

The difference is that the Patriots had a hand in how many points the Colts scored and vice versa. Their play affected the Colts play and the Colts play affected theirs. Knowing this you can't conclude that you would have beat any other team that day because the Wild Card (no pun intended) is that an NFL team's play affects the outcome of the other team's play, where your Fantasy team's play certainly doesn't affect the other owner's Fantasy team's play. Therefore it is left completely up to luck.

It would be one thing if your Fantasy team was a cause to the other owner's team scoring more points, but it's not. You can be (and I have been) knocked out of the first round of playoffs because you drew the highest scoring Fantasy team of the week. You scored enough points to beat any other team that week but you got unlucky and drew the cream of the crop that week and you're done. To me that really sucks, especially when money and bragging rights are on the line.

The Victory Points scoring system is no doubt (in my mind) the best way to go in the regular season and now I'm thinking that it just might be the best way to go in the playoffs as well. Just my 2 cents. :-?
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Re: "League Points" Scoring System?

Postby The Lung » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:13 pm

dream_017 wrote:Has anyone gone back to look at how different standings would turn out between the 2 methods. I would be interested to see just how different they are. My guess is that the teams making the playoffs would be very similar in both set-ups.


Every year we look at it.

In 2005 the league was based at Antsports and I don't have access to that right now.

In 2006, the 6 teams in the playoffs were the EXACT same as if the league was pure H2H.

Last year, a 6-7 team made the final spot in the playoffs over a 7-6 team because the former had more Victory Points. The latter was the commissioner, so he couldn't complain. :-D The #1-#5 seeds were the exact same as if the league was pure H2H. (And for the record, the #1 seed still won the league, #3 came in second, and #2 came in third...)
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Re: "League Points" Scoring System?

Postby dream_017 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:53 am

The Lung wrote:
dream_017 wrote:Has anyone gone back to look at how different standings would turn out between the 2 methods. I would be interested to see just how different they are. My guess is that the teams making the playoffs would be very similar in both set-ups.


Every year we look at it.

In 2005 the league was based at Antsports and I don't have access to that right now.

In 2006, the 6 teams in the playoffs were the EXACT same as if the league was pure H2H.

Last year, a 6-7 team made the final spot in the playoffs over a 7-6 team because the former had more Victory Points. The latter was the commissioner, so he couldn't complain. :-D The #1-#5 seeds were the exact same as if the league was pure H2H. (And for the record, the #1 seed still won the league, #3 came in second, and #2 came in third...)

So, everyone complains about the regular season being all about luck and there has to be a better way, yet, for the most part things work out the same as pure H2H in the end :-?
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Re: "League Points" Scoring System?

Postby The Lung » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:01 am

dream_017 wrote:So, everyone complains about the regular season being all about luck and there has to be a better way, yet, for the most part things work out the same as pure H2H in the end :-?


Yea, pretty much. :-b

But that was just one dynasty league. I know that every year I'm in at least one re-draft league where I'm either the leader in total points or close to it and still miss the playoffs by a spot or two - what I wouldn't give for Victory Points in those leagues.

I'm also in a new dynasty league this year with Victory Points, and I'll be sure to report what the outcome is once playoffs are determined. (Along with the previously referenced dynasty league)

But I think the results are going to be about the same. If you're a good team, you're gonna be one of the top seeds no matter what the scoring system. The Victory Points system is really just designed to make sure that last place spot or spots is not filled by the team(s) that finishes 8th or 9th in total points scored but got lucky because the vagaries of the randomly chosen schedule, their opponents who may have had players on bye week, or injured etc. which gave them flukey 49.0-48.8 wins.
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Re: "League Points" Scoring System?

Postby FFisLife » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:28 pm

dream_017 wrote:So, everyone complains about the regular season being all about luck and there has to be a better way, yet, for the most part things work out the same as pure H2H in the end :-?


I don't think it's a fair conclusion that Victory Points don't make that much of a difference based off of only one example. I would be willing to bet that if you took a much bigger sampling you would find the obvious difference that the Victory Points scoring system makes.
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Re: "League Points" Scoring System?

Postby dream_017 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:31 pm

FFisLife wrote:
dream_017 wrote:So, everyone complains about the regular season being all about luck and there has to be a better way, yet, for the most part things work out the same as pure H2H in the end :-?


I don't think it's a fair conclusion that Victory Points don't make that much of a difference based off of only one example. I would be willing to bet that if you took a much bigger sampling you would find the obvious difference that the Victory Points scoring system makes.

If you read my post above, I contend that it would not make that much of a difference overall and already have 1 example on my side. If I get time, I'll got through my league for the past couple years and see how different it would be.
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Re: "League Points" Scoring System?

Postby dream_017 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:15 pm

OK, I went and calculated it for my league based on last year and 5 of the 6 playoff spots are the same. I didn't see the breakout for a 10 team league posted so I made up my own based on:
1 - 2
2 - 2
3 - 2
4 - 1
5 - 1
6 - 1
7 - 1
8 - 0
9 - 0
10 - 0

I don't think things would turn out much different, if that were to be adjusted.

So, as I contend before, this does not affect the outcome of the season very much. Most will be the same as H2H or there might be one change, but really is it that much to complain about and change the whole H2H process. Throughout the season things work themselves out.


EDIT: OK, I just ran through 2006 - - and the standings would have ended up exactly the same both ways ;-D
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Re: "League Points" Scoring System?

Postby FFisLife » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:24 pm

dream_017 wrote:So, as I contend before, this does not affect the outcome of the season very much. Most will be the same as H2H or there might be one change...


Ok, I went back and looked at one my leagues from last year and you are right that it didn't change things that much, but it DID change things considerably for ME. The guy that ended up in 1st place at the end of the regular season ended up dropping to 4th and I, who finished in 4th place at the end of the regular season ended up finishing in 1st!!!

Yeah the same teams still made the Playoffs but I lost out on big time bragging rights with my buddies. As a side note, I'm not surprised at this because even though I finished in 4th place I still had the most points in the league. This 4th place finish, while still having the most points in the league last year, is what got me tuned in to this whole topic in the first place.

So yeah you're right in the fact that it looks like it doesn't affect the playoff picture that much but try being that one guy that it does affect. I understand you might be saying, "Ok, but you still made the Playoffs didn't you? Quit your whining."

Fair enough but consider this... If I would have been in a Victory Points league last year instead of a traditional league I would have finished in 1st place and drawn the lowest seeded team in the Playoffs, which would have allowed me to win that first round and then possibly the whole thing.

Long story short... the effect of the Victory Points scoring system might be minimal but it does keep teams like mine last year from being screwed. I respect your opinion from your viewpoint but I think your opinion might change if you had to look at this from my viewpoint or someone else's that has been railroaded by the traditional scoring system. ;-)
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W/T -- T.O., Wayne, Fitzgerald, Marshall
K ------ Elam
Def ----Tenn

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Re: "League Points" Scoring System?

Postby dream_017 » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:02 pm

FFisLife wrote:
dream_017 wrote:So, as I contend before, this does not affect the outcome of the season very much. Most will be the same as H2H or there might be one change...


Ok, I went back and looked at one my leagues from last year and you are right that it didn't change things that much, but it DID change things considerably for ME. The guy that ended up in 1st place at the end of the regular season ended up dropping to 4th and I, who finished in 4th place at the end of the regular season ended up finishing in 1st!!!

Yeah the same teams still made the Playoffs but I lost out on big time bragging rights with my buddies. As a side note, I'm not surprised at this because even though I finished in 4th place I still had the most points in the league. This 4th place finish, while still having the most points in the league last year, is what got me tuned in to this whole topic in the first place.

So yeah you're right in the fact that it looks like it doesn't affect the playoff picture that much but try being that one guy that it does affect. I understand you might be saying, "Ok, but you still made the Playoffs didn't you? Quit your whining."

Fair enough but consider this... If I would have been in a Victory Points league last year instead of a traditional league I would have finished in 1st place and drawn the lowest seeded team in the Playoffs, which would have allowed me to win that first round and then possibly the whole thing.

Long story short... the effect of the Victory Points scoring system might be minimal but it does keep teams like mine last year from being screwed. I respect your opinion from your viewpoint but I think your opinion might change if you had to look at this from my viewpoint or someone else's that has been railroaded by the traditional scoring system. ;-)

See this is the problem that I have....that you go into, well, I'd have a better match-up H2H....if you scored the most points it shouldn't really matter who you play should it once it gets down to playoffs. If your schedule was different in the regular season you may have ended up 1st and not 4th(based on H2H). This is all about people trying to do the best for their team based on how they finish that year. You want victory points, but then H2H once it gets down to playoffs, why? Again, I contend that it takes skill to get into the playoffs and luck to win the championship. H2H is the fun of FF, and I will not stray away from that even if I was the second highest scoring team all year and played the highest score and finished 0-13.
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Re: "League Points" Scoring System?

Postby The Lung » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:02 pm

dream_017 wrote: H2H is the fun of FF, and I will not stray away from that even if I was the second highest scoring team all year and played the highest score and finished 0-13.


And while that is a bit of an exaggeration, that shows the major philosophical difference that for whom the Victory Point system appeals to.

Intuitively something seems very very wrong to a lot of fantasy football participants when you're the points leader at the end of the year and yet miss the playoffs because you were the 2nd or 3rd highest scoring team many weeks out of the season.

While H2H may be the fun of FF for some, helping to remove an element of luck from fantasy football (which already has luck as a huge component) makes FF *more* fun for many of us. ;-D
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