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Week 13 Games Talk

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Re: Week 13 Games Talk

Postby deerayfan072 » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:15 pm

HskrPwr13 wrote:Agreed. I hate that voters can only seem to be able to focus on the last 2 weeks especially the closer the end of the season gets. (Thats why I cant understand why fans want a playoff based on those same rankings.) CFN did a nice take on this in their "5 hot topics" article that agrees also. Frankly, I dont understand why somehow the non-conference wins matter more than the conference wins.

FACTS
-Texas has played all of the other top5 Big12 teams, all in a row, and came within a dropped interception of coming out of it unscathed.
-By comparison, OU, up to this point has only played 2 of the other 4 top5 Big12 teams. Won big at home against TT, and lost on neutral field to Texas. They wont play OSU til next week, and wont play Mizzou unless they go to the title game.
-Texas beat OU.

OPINIONS
-I like the wins over Mizzou and OSU more than the wins over TCU and Cincy, but admittedly its close.
-OU has been a beast at home, and very good on the road.
-Texas has been equally good no matter where they've played.


unless the game changes in the second half, Texas won't jump OU in the BCS because of this TAMU/UT game unless OU loses :-/
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Re: Week 13 Games Talk

Postby HskrPwr13 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:02 pm

Watched some GameDay this morning. They were implying that if OU goes to the Big12 title game and gets beat that the voters would jump USC over Texas because of the whole not winning their conference/division argument (which is a crap argument when same voters are deciding the division champ). Its still possible that USC doesnt win their conference either. Even if OSU loses, Texas' sched/results should far outway that of USC's. I thought the whole implication was dung.
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Re: Week 13 Games Talk

Postby Metroid » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:11 pm

HskrPwr13 wrote:Its still possible that USC doesnt win their conference either.

Very possible all the Beavs have to do is beat the Ducks today and they win the conference.
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Re: Week 13 Games Talk

Postby deerayfan072 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:24 pm

HskrPwr13 wrote:Watched some GameDay this morning. They were implying that if OU goes to the Big12 title game and gets beat that the voters would jump USC over Texas because of the whole not winning their conference/division argument (which is a crap argument when same voters are deciding the division champ). Its still possible that USC doesnt win their conference either. Even if OSU loses, Texas' sched/results should far outway that of USC's. I thought the whole implication was dung.


I still think you need to win your conference. If both were to not win it than Texas should go because at that point there isn't anyone worthy that won their conference, but if Texas does not win it and USC does win their conference I think USC should go. This is merely a philosophical argument by me. I think to have an argument you need to win your conference. I said it last year with UGA, who I felt was the best team at the time of the NC game last year.
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Re: Week 13 Games Talk

Postby HskrPwr13 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:51 pm

deerayfan072 wrote:
HskrPwr13 wrote:Watched some GameDay this morning. They were implying that if OU goes to the Big12 title game and gets beat that the voters would jump USC over Texas because of the whole not winning their conference/division argument (which is a crap argument when same voters are deciding the division champ). Its still possible that USC doesnt win their conference either. Even if OSU loses, Texas' sched/results should far outway that of USC's. I thought the whole implication was dung.


I still think you need to win your conference. If both were to not win it than Texas should go because at that point there isn't anyone worthy that won their conference, but if Texas does not win it and USC does win their conference I think USC should go. This is merely a philosophical argument by me. I think to have an argument you need to win your conference. I said it last year with UGA, who I felt was the best team at the time of the NC game last year.


If a team legitamently plays their way out, as UGA did based on the tie breakers, then I can lend merit to that argument even if I disagree with it. But this wouldnt be the case with Texas. Assuming no upsets, they havent lost any tie breaker. The voters, the same that will vote the NC teams, will decide if they "won" their division. To me, thats not the same as "not winning" your division.

To stick with your argument, I wouldda thought Utah would be a legitament conference champion. I'd have a hard time putting them ahead of Texas, but I have zero reservations about putting them ahead of USC. You're totally giving USC a pass (just like the media) because they're USC. Utah's sched matches up just fine against that week azz Pac-10.

-----------"Big Win"------"Nice Win"-------- Losses
USC: ---- Ohio St ------- Oregon------------- Oregon St
Utah:---- TCU, BYU ----- @AFA, Oregon St----None

Even if you remove @AFA, I really dont understand how ANYONE can legitamenlty have USC ahead of Utah. Other than those 3 games I mentioned for USC, the rest of their sched is the sound or crickets (maybe you can throw the opening win @UVA as a team with half a pulse). Cripes! The MWC went 6-1 against the Pac-10!
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Re: Week 13 Games Talk

Postby deerayfan072 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:08 pm

HskrPwr13 wrote:
deerayfan072 wrote:
HskrPwr13 wrote:Watched some GameDay this morning. They were implying that if OU goes to the Big12 title game and gets beat that the voters would jump USC over Texas because of the whole not winning their conference/division argument (which is a crap argument when same voters are deciding the division champ). Its still possible that USC doesnt win their conference either. Even if OSU loses, Texas' sched/results should far outway that of USC's. I thought the whole implication was dung.


I still think you need to win your conference. If both were to not win it than Texas should go because at that point there isn't anyone worthy that won their conference, but if Texas does not win it and USC does win their conference I think USC should go. This is merely a philosophical argument by me. I think to have an argument you need to win your conference. I said it last year with UGA, who I felt was the best team at the time of the NC game last year.


If a team legitamently plays their way out, as UGA did based on the tie breakers, then I can lend merit to that argument even if I disagree with it. But this wouldnt be the case with Texas. Assuming no upsets, they havent lost any tie breaker. The voters, the same that will vote the NC teams, will decide if they "won" their division. To me, thats not the same as "not winning" your division.

To stick with your argument, I wouldda thought Utah would be a legitament conference champion. I'd have a hard time putting them ahead of Texas, but I have zero reservations about putting them ahead of USC. You're totally giving USC a pass (just like the media) because they're USC. Utah's sched matches up just fine against that week azz Pac-10.

-----------"Big Win"------"Nice Win"-------- Losses
USC: ---- Ohio St ------- Oregon------------- Oregon St
Utah:---- TCU, BYU ----- @AFA, Oregon St----None

Even if you remove @AFA, I really dont understand how ANYONE can legitamenlty have USC ahead of Utah. Other than those 3 games I mentioned for USC, the rest of their sched is the sound or crickets (maybe you can throw the opening win @UVA as a team with half a pulse). Cripes! The MWC went 6-1 against the Pac-10!


I am not and have never given USC a pass. I think by now most here would know that.
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Re: Week 13 Games Talk

Postby HskrPwr13 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:10 pm

deerayfan072 wrote:
I am not and have never given USC a pass. I think by now most here would know that.


Then what's your reasoning for giving USC the title shot over Utah in the scenario you mentioned?
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Re: Week 13 Games Talk

Postby deerayfan072 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:40 pm

HskrPwr13 wrote:
deerayfan072 wrote:
I am not and have never given USC a pass. I think by now most here would know that.


Then what's your reasoning for giving USC the title shot over Utah in the scenario you mentioned?



First, SOS is the same. USC is 53 and Utah is 54. Also, USC's defense is nasty. They actually play defense unlike most other teams in the country. They have the number 1 overall defense in the country. They have a solid offense and IMO would beat almost every team in the country on any given day. IMO Utah and USC is not even close to a choice on who is the better team. USC would smoke Utah if they played head to head. A lot of my thoughts come from watching 18-20 college games a week and not from saying that X beat y and Y beat z so Z must be able to beat Q. (not saying you do either one of these because everyone has a different way of how they rank or determine who is a good team)

Utah did beat OSU, but if you watched that game then you know OSU would have won that game about 80% of the time. BYU sucks and was exposed by multiple teams and that win is meaningless to me IMO. (As a solid win) AF game was close because AF plays Utah close. They would get killed by USC. TCU is good, and if you watched TCU and Utah game then you would know that TCU would have won that game 99% of the time. I said it during that game a hundred times, TCU killed themselves. The owned Utah and Utah got lucky that the TCU kicker missed 4 or 5 field goals and that TCU shot themselves in the foot everytime they got into the red zone. It was pathetic.

I think this argument comes down to a philosophical difference in how we look at college football. (There is nothing wrong with that either) We both want the best teams in the country to play for the title, but look at who is the best in different ways. I look at USC and Utah and think there is no way that Utah is a better team. You look and say look at what Utah has done compared to USC with the wins and having not lost, so Utah looks to be the better team. I can't really argue with the stats. As I said, the SOS are about the same and USC has a loss, so looking purely at that you are right. I am looking beyond that and more to what I have seen with my eyes when I have watched USC and Utah play. I think Utah has looked beatable in most of there games, whereas USC has not looked beatable outside of loss to OSU. It is the same thing for Florida. They lost one game by a point on a blocked xp. Other then that they have totally dominated every team they have played and have not looked beatable at any point on those games. I think we have two ways of looking at college ball and thats where the disagreement comes in. Nothing wrong with either side, and I totally see your side of the argument. ;-D
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Re: Week 13 Games Talk

Postby A Fleshner Fantasy » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:53 am

Deeray, I dislike giving USC a title shot as much as anyone because I don't think they deserved it. However, rather than comparing them to Utah, I'll compare them to the dreaded big 10 team: Penn St. I'll start off by saying that I don't care that a big 10 team has gotten smoked in the title game the last 2 years. It doesn't matter to me for a couple reasons:

1) Penn St. shouldn't be penalized for what Ohio St. did (or failed to do) each of the last couple years
2) Just because the big 10 champion was bad last year doesn't mean they are bad this year
3) I base who should get into the national championship only on what they have done this year, not what has happened in previous years (also part of the reason I don't give USC the natural bias that a lot of people do)

Now, lets compare USC and Penn St:

They both have one loss (I go into detail later). They both won a relatively weak conference that doesn't have a championship game.

SOS:
Penn St.- 44
USC- 53
Advantage goes to Penn St.

Common opponents: Oregon St and Ohio St

Penn St. destroyed Oregon St. while USC lost to them
USC destroyed Ohio St (albeit without OSU's best player) whereas Penn St. beat them in a close one (with Beanie Wells).
Common opponents overall: advantage goes to Penn St.

Who did the lose to:

Penn St. lost to Iowa
USC lost to Oregon St.
Advantage goes to USC

Big wins:

Penn St. beat Ohio St. by 7 and beat both Michigan St. and Oregon St. by 31
USC beat Ohio St. by 32 and Oregon by 34.
Advantage goes to Penn St.

Computer rankings:

Penn St. is 7th
USC is 8th
Advantage goes to Penn St.

Really, the best argument you have for USC against Penn St. is that you have watched college football and you think that USC could beat them and that USC is a better team than them. The BCS is subjective as it is already. Putting a team in the championship game merely because they looked good when you watched them on tv makes a bad system worse. Based on what each team has done on the field, Penn St. should get into the national championship over USC.
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Re: Week 13 Games Talk

Postby deerayfan072 » Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:14 am

A Fleshner Fantasy wrote:Deeray, I dislike giving USC a title shot as much as anyone because I don't think they deserved it. However, rather than comparing them to Utah, I'll compare them to the dreaded big 10 team: Penn St. I'll start off by saying that I don't care that a big 10 team has gotten smoked in the title game the last 2 years. It doesn't matter to me for a couple reasons:

1) Penn St. shouldn't be penalized for what Ohio St. did (or failed to do) each of the last couple years
2) Just because the big 10 champion was bad last year doesn't mean they are bad this year
3) I base who should get into the national championship only on what they have done this year, not what has happened in previous years (also part of the reason I don't give USC the natural bias that a lot of people do)

Now, lets compare USC and Penn St:

They both have one loss (I go into detail later). They both won a relatively weak conference that doesn't have a championship game.

SOS:
Penn St.- 44
USC- 53
Advantage goes to Penn St.

Common opponents: Oregon St and Ohio St

Penn St. destroyed Oregon St. while USC lost to them
USC destroyed Ohio St (albeit without OSU's best player) whereas Penn St. beat them in a close one (with Beanie Wells).
Common opponents overall: advantage goes to Penn St.

Who did the lose to:

Penn St. lost to Iowa
USC lost to Oregon St.
Advantage goes to USC

Big wins:

Penn St. beat Ohio St. by 7 and beat both Michigan St. and Oregon St. by 31
USC beat Ohio St. by 32 and Oregon by 34.
Advantage goes to Penn St.

Computer rankings:

Penn St. is 7th
USC is 8th
Advantage goes to Penn St.

Really, the best argument you have for USC against Penn St. is that you have watched college football and you think that USC could beat them and that USC is a better team than them. The BCS is subjective as it is already. Putting a team in the championship game merely because they looked good when you watched them on tv makes a bad system worse. Based on what each team has done on the field, Penn St. should get into the national championship over USC.


How do the polls work again? Don't people watch games and put teams where they think they should be based on what they saw on the field? That is what I am doing. IMO, USC would dominate PSU. Looks like we will get to see that game too, so we will see if my eye test stands the test.
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