Standings Tiebreakers - Fantasy Football Cafe 2014 Fantasy Football Cafe


Return to Commissioner's Corner

Standings Tiebreakers

Moderator: Football Moderators

Standings Tiebreakers

Postby The Natural » Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:32 am

What do you use for a tiebreak? Total Points or head to head?

Our leagues rules state Total Points is the tie break but the commissioner wants to change it to head to head THIS YEAR. He said it was an oversight on his part when he made the rules and that head to head is most common. I have already voiced my opinion but wanted to see what everyone else used too. The commish is willing to listen to the other owners.

If the rule is not changed this year, it may be next year.
The Natural
Monday Morning Quarterback


Posts: 3
Joined: 9 Jan 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Standings Tiebreakers

Postby Matthias » Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:46 am

First, if he wants to change it, change it next year.

Second, head to head is a terrible tiebreak. Total points is much better. Head to head makes sense when you're actually playing someone on something.... if we're in a real-life ping-pong league and we end up with the same record, I can look at the week that we played each other and say, "See? When we played each other, I was better. So I should get the spot." But head-to-head doesn't mean anything in fantasy sports. It's not like you're influencing my lineup in any way, shape, or form. So the fact that you ended up with the win means exactly zilch.

Total points, however, is what you're trying to do in fantasy sports. Every week you're trying to put out the lineup that scores the most. So whoever has done that more often should get the spot.
Matthias
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 2398
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Standings Tiebreakers

Postby Rrolack » Wed Nov 26, 2008 8:50 am

If he wants to change the rule next year, that's fine, though I think most will agree that total points is a much better tiebreaker than head-to-head record.

Changing it this year is a huge no-no, it should be done only with unanimous support from league members.
Rrolack
Defensive Assistant
Defensive Assistant


Posts: 365
(Past Year: 9)
Joined: 25 Sep 2007
Home Cafe: Football

Re: Standings Tiebreakers

Postby The Natural » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:40 am

Matthias wrote:First, if he wants to change it, change it next year.

Second, head to head is a terrible tiebreak. Total points is much better. Head to head makes sense when you're actually playing someone on something.... if we're in a real-life ping-pong league and we end up with the same record, I can look at the week that we played each other and say, "See? When we played each other, I was better. So I should get the spot." But head-to-head doesn't mean anything in fantasy sports. It's not like you're influencing my lineup in any way, shape, or form. So the fact that you ended up with the win means exactly zilch.

Total points, however, is what you're trying to do in fantasy sports. Every week you're trying to put out the lineup that scores the most. So whoever has done that more often should get the spot.


Thank you for putting it this way. I used this in my argument for not only keeping points as the tie break this year but also to keep it that way for next year.

Also, I agree that rules should not be changed midseason. Some of these guys are in the baseball league I commished (retired at the end of this last season) and they know I am against changing rules midseason.

Hopefully, the commish will it this way also. It may not end up mattering this year, but it makes more sense to me to use total points.

I am currently the second highest scoring team but am in a three way tie for the last playoff spot (6 of 12 make the playoffs). I play one of the other teams and the third team plays the top team in the league. Have to take care of business this week and see how it falls.
The Natural
Monday Morning Quarterback


Posts: 3
Joined: 9 Jan 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Standings Tiebreakers

Postby Dan Lambskin » Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:50 am

absolutely no way you can change it this year

as for H2H vs Total Points...to each his own. personally i like the H2H to apply
Dan Lambskin
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
EditorFantasy ExpertCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeSurvival Of The Fittest WinnerPick 3 Weekly WinnerMatchup Meltdown SurvivorCafe Blackjack Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly WinnerTrivia Time Trial Monthly Winner
Posts: 7054
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: being a fan of the worst franchise in the NFL

Re: Standings Tiebreakers

Postby Matthias » Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:06 pm

If you play on CBS, they do something that has some of the feel of total points and some of the feel of H2H. They report each team's Breakdown, which is their total record against the entire league for the entire season, as if you played every team in the league every week. So it rewards people who do well but also rewards consistency and takes out the randomness of the week that you play someone, which all H2H really is.

Here's really why H2H is stupid. Here's me stacked up against the other guy in the lead in one league (scores me/him):
Week 1: 118.55 / 119.7
Week 2: 111.3 / 98.7
Week 3: 89.94 / 88.8
Week 4: 85.64 / 96.18
Week 5: 64.35 / 135.16
Week 6: 104.01 / 75.7
Week 7: 123.05 / 92.51
Week 8: 93.2 / 72.6
Week 9: 96.3 / 88.44
Week 10: 126.78 / 82.05
Week 11: 109.63 / 97.86
Week 12: 107.35 / 126.83

So if we had played each other every week, I would've gone 8-4 against him. Now, can you tell which week was the H2H week? Do you think that he "gameplanned" any different in our H2H week? Of course not. We did happen to play each other in Week 4 so on a "Head to Head" basis he's favored, which is just stupid. If the schedule had been generated differently and we had played each other in Week 7, does that change the meaning behind our teams? No. Or least it shouldn't.

If you look at with total points, I lead 1230 to 1174. And if you look at it with Sportsline's Breakdown feature, my overall record is 96-36 versus his 80-52. Sure, he's having a good year, but my year is better by every metric except the arbitrary one. Head to head is meaningless in a game that is not literally "head to head".
Matthias
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 2398
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Standings Tiebreakers

Postby spodog » Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:55 pm

Can't change it THIS year, must wait til next year, oversight or not.

Personal preference, by the way, is NOT to go to total points as #2 behind overall record. Personal preference is to stay similar to the NFL, and go with some meaningful record for whatever tie you are breaking.

So if it is a tiebreaker for DIVISION winner, go with DIV record as #2 behind overall record.
Image
spodog
General Manager
General Manager

User avatar
Cafe WriterCafe RankerCafe SpotterWeb SupporterMatchup Meltdown SurvivorCafe Blackjack Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 4058
Joined: 21 Sep 2004
Home Cafe: Football
Location: At my trailer on the beach in Malibu

Re: Standings Tiebreakers

Postby dupree » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:17 am

Don't understand how you can be so against H2H as the tie breaker if you are playing in a H2H league. If the argument is that H2H doesn't have any meaning b/c you aren't picking players or making decisions based on your opponent, which invalidates any "meaning" behind H2H, then why wouldn't you go all the way and just play a total points league rather than a H2H? IMO H2H tie breakers in a H2H league make perfect sense, but that is just like my opinion man.

But to weigh in on the original question I think we all agree that it is to late to change such a key rule this late in the season. (unless there is a league unanimous consensus among the players, I mean it is your league after all). I personally like the H2H tie break and here is what we use, for 2 team tie breakers:

Within a Division
1) H2H
2) Division record
3) Total Points Scored
4) Total Points Against
5) BCS Ranking, actually that would be just silly we actually Flip a coin.

Non-Divisional opponents
1) H2H
2) Total Points Scored
3) Total Points Against
4) Coin Flip
dupree
Special Teams Staff
Special Teams Staff

User avatar

Posts: 247
Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Home Cafe: Football

Re: Standings Tiebreakers

Postby Matthias » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:04 am

dupree wrote:Don't understand how you can be so against H2H as the tie breaker if you are playing in a H2H league. If the argument is that H2H doesn't have any meaning b/c you aren't picking players or making decisions based on your opponent, which invalidates any "meaning" behind H2H, then why wouldn't you go all the way and just play a total points league rather than a H2H?

People like weekly matchups; it generates interest each Sunday watching your players versus his. But that doesn't carry through on the tie-breakers... you can have the same experience with a more logical tiebreaker so there's no reason to continue the randomness all the way down the line.

Yes, the NFL uses H2H. But they're actually playing the games and so what it does is take away conjecture. Minnesota and New Orleans don't have to get into some BCS craziness, comparing their records and the records of their opponents, and what was the scoring diffential, etc., etc., to determine who can lay claim to being the better team: in Week 5 Minnesota won 30-27. That logic doesn't apply in a fantasy H2H as your score has nothing to do with their team and their score has nothing to do with your team. Now, if over the course of a 14-week season, your team would've beat them 11 times and lost only 3, then you probably have the better team. But the meaning behind any of those individual games is small.
Matthias
General Manager
General Manager


Posts: 2398
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Standings Tiebreakers

Postby djadrock » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:48 pm

We do the following:

1. Head-to-Head results.

2. Overall Division Record.

3. Total fantasy points scored.

4. Total fantasy points scored against.

5. Total fantasy points scored in Week 13.

6. Total fantasy points scored in Week 12, etc.

I need some help with my problem: viewtopic.php?f=238&t=430141
djadrock
Offensive Coordinator
Offensive Coordinator

User avatar

Posts: 982
(Past Year: 7)
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Home Cafe: Football


Return to Commissioner's Corner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Start & Sit Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Get Ready...
The 2014 NFL season kicks off in 9:12 hours
(and 35 days)
2014 NFL Schedule


  • Fantasy Football
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact