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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby joejlitz » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:57 pm

LS2throwed wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Dallas deserves to go 6-10 if they believe TO is the guy at the root of why they are losing and missing the playoffs.

I wonder how long it will take the franchise to realize that Roy Williams isn't half of the WR Owens is in both talent and effort level.



You have to realize TO isn't getting cut because he's the root of the problem, it's about chemistry, getting guys on the same page and working together, and one way or another it won't be a pretty break-up with TO, he's going to want the ball even at 37, ESPN is gonna keep cameras on him everywhere he goes and wait for one soundbite to play all week, it's less about TO being the problem or not being able to play then it is trying to have some chemistry.


Just like during the Super Bowl when Fitz had 1 catch when the 4th quarter started, he kept quiet and waited for his time, believe it or not but that makes Todd Haley's job that much easier, he can take what the defense gives him and pick his spots, but TO would of been throwing a fit after the 1st quarter, everyone knows it so Garrett tries to force feed him plays in the play calls early on that don't work, Romo over looks a wide open Miles Austin or Crayton to throw to double covered TO, trust me this stuff goes on.


Back when Romo took over for Bledsoe, he was just out there slinging the ball around, taking the open man, scrambling, now I'll see him make some throws to TO and he's no where near open, but he knows TO gets pissy if he doesn't get the ball within the first 10 minutes...That throws off the rhythm of the offense, granted again that's on Garrett to get guys involved but defenses go into games knowing they are taking TO away, but instead of going to Austin or Crayton to open that up we keep going to TO until we get 3 turnovers.


I don't think TO is needed to win, and even if you want to argue that Roy Williams isn't half the WR he is(which is not even close to being true) you don't need two dominant WR's to make it through the NFC, Witten is arguably the best TE in the game, Crayton is great out of the slot and Austin is perfect as a #2 and if all 3 backs are utilized in a strong running game that's more then enough with Roy as a #1.


It's funny to see how many people jump ship on Roy Williams and act like he sucks now, I can't wait to see how many people band wagon back over when he dominates again...I forget this is a "what have you done for me lately" society though, but people will come around when TO leaves and he moves to the 'X' WR.

Excellent commentary.

I still hate the cheating-Patriots, though.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby moochman » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:38 am

TO and Roy are totally different WRs. Roy won't run the hard routes nearly as well as TO. He also won't whine about not getting the ball as much...mostly because when he doesn't get the ball he likes to quietly fade away. Can't do that with your mouth open.
Roy is a talent WR with better hands than TO, though he still will drop a few. But there probably isn't one route he can run better than Owens. I wouldn't say he isn't half the WR that Owens is, more like about 4/5ths. But it is that last 1/5th that seperates the best from the better.

Worries me that when TO spouted off about Romo and Witten and the play calling there were others on the team that agreed. So the problem there wasn't TO. By dumping him they do little to solve the problem. Garrett is probably the guy who should go second, with Wade always at the front of the list.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby Kensat30 » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:37 pm

I was on the Roy Williams bandwagon about 3 years ago before I realized he is too slow to play NFL WR. It's well past the time where a talented rookie WR that has all the potential in the world should be turning into a real player. Roy Williams at this point should be a bonafide STAR. Jon Kitna in a Mike Martz offense was throwing bombs for a season and a half. And yet we see Calvin Johnson come in and do 10x what Roy ever did with 1/10th of the real NFL experience. Not to say that Roy Williams isn't a talented player, he is, but he isn't a star player and he never will be.

Roy Williams is just another version of TO that has less heart and desire, speed, and overall ability on game day. There are so many guys like him in the NFL that are missing one or two key ingredients to be stars. Roy Williams isn't fast enough, doesn't get enough seperation, and he can go games at a time where the QB just won't throw him the ball because of it and rightly so. Fact is, there are so many worthless WRs out there with TO-like mental "defects", albeit with much less media attention following them around, but very, very few can match what TO does on the field and "back it up". For all the drops that TO makes, why is it that this is one of the rare guys that just catches TDs every single year? Is it because he trains harder than the rest of the players in the offseason. Is it that this guy is so proactive in his desire to play that he buys himself a hyperbolic chamber to speed his treatment. Most teams don't even look at health in the same light as TO. This guy takes care of his body like no other and he uses up his body on the field.

Is it a surprise that EVERY SINGLE ONE of TO's former QBs has elevated their play up into the upper stratosphere? WRs are limited to their QBs ability, just as much as WRs can elevate their QBs level of play. QBs throw the ball to TO because he does something with it. And smart QBs know that you get the ball to your playmakers. Smart coaches know that you design plays and even systems to benefit your team strengths. Dallas offensive playcallers and Tony Romo HAVE become complacent, there are way too many plays targeted/going to Jason Witten than are necessary or benefitial. The stats look so good on paper, but really the result on the field is what we are seeing. WINNING CURES EVERYTHING. It's as if Montana in the 80s focused in on Brent Jones (a great TE in his time) instead of just getting the ball to #80. It's the all about the offense and using the talent you have in place.

In Dallas right now, we are seeing a team that throws too much. TO is producing at an adequate above-average level, but they are using the guy in completely the wrong way. He gets a lot of low-quality passes thrown to him right now. If and when they get rid of TO, they are going to find out that you can't use Roy Williams in the same way you are using TO and expect to get even an above-average level of play. Low-quality passes thrown to a less talented player just won't get the same results. And suddenly Jason Witten just isn't going to be as open any more, and Roy Williams will be just as covered and just as difficult to hit on poorly designed quick slants. If and when TO is let go in Dallas, it's firesale time on Tony Romo IMO.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby joejlitz » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:11 pm

Kensat30 wrote:I was on the Roy Williams bandwagon about 3 years ago before I realized he is too slow to play NFL WR. It's well past the time where a talented rookie WR that has all the potential in the world should be turning into a real player. Roy Williams at this point should be a bonafide STAR. Jon Kitna in a Mike Martz offense was throwing bombs for a season and a half. And yet we see Calvin Johnson come in and do 10x what Roy ever did with 1/10th of the real NFL experience. Not to say that Roy Williams isn't a talented player, he is, but he isn't a star player and he never will be.

Roy Williams is just another version of TO that has less heart and desire, speed, and overall ability on game day. There are so many guys like him in the NFL that are missing one or two key ingredients to be stars. Roy Williams isn't fast enough, doesn't get enough seperation, and he can go games at a time where the QB just won't throw him the ball because of it and rightly so. Fact is, there are so many worthless WRs out there with TO-like mental "defects", albeit with much less media attention following them around, but very, very few can match what TO does on the field and "back it up". For all the drops that TO makes, why is it that this is one of the rare guys that just catches TDs every single year? Is it because he trains harder than the rest of the players in the offseason. Is it that this guy is so proactive in his desire to play that he buys himself a hyperbolic chamber to speed his treatment. Most teams don't even look at health in the same light as TO. This guy takes care of his body like no other and he uses up his body on the field.

Is it a surprise that EVERY SINGLE ONE of TO's former QBs has elevated their play up into the upper stratosphere? WRs are limited to their QBs ability, just as much as WRs can elevate their QBs level of play. QBs throw the ball to TO because he does something with it. And smart QBs know that you get the ball to your playmakers. Smart coaches know that you design plays and even systems to benefit your team strengths. Dallas offensive playcallers and Tony Romo HAVE become complacent, there are way too many plays targeted/going to Jason Witten than are necessary or benefitial. The stats look so good on paper, but really the result on the field is what we are seeing. WINNING CURES EVERYTHING. It's as if Montana in the 80s focused in on Brent Jones (a great TE in his time) instead of just getting the ball to #80. It's the all about the offense and using the talent you have in place.

In Dallas right now, we are seeing a team that throws too much. TO is producing at an adequate above-average level, but they are using the guy in completely the wrong way. He gets a lot of low-quality passes thrown to him right now. If and when they get rid of TO, they are going to find out that you can't use Roy Williams in the same way you are using TO and expect to get even an above-average level of play. Low-quality passes thrown to a less talented player just won't get the same results. And suddenly Jason Witten just isn't going to be as open any more, and Roy Williams will be just as covered and just as difficult to hit on poorly designed quick slants. If and when TO is let go in Dallas, it's firesale time on Tony Romo IMO.

Dude - are you an English major? Becuase you write some serious novel-length posts in these threads. I read them, but it hurts my head in anticipation of a long read.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby Amazinz » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:13 pm

Kensat, if you'd be so kind post Cliff Notes for the guys from Philly. :-D
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby LS2throwed » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:13 am

Kensat30 wrote: If and when TO is let go in Dallas, it's firesale time on Tony Romo IMO.



Yea right, I'll be sure to call you on that one because it's bound to happen sooner or later...I have watched more TO then you have, he's not the same WR your making him out to be and it's completely unfair to base Romo's talent or production solely on TO, he still gets beat with press coverage and a safety over top, he still drops easy passes, he still comes up short when he needs the 1st down he won't fight for the extra yard.


With him getting one more year older you don't know which of these will get worse, but I'm pretty sure I don't expect any of them to stop...He's still a dominant WR, but you act like it's the TO show and nobody else in Dallas, Witten is going to get open otherwise how do you explain Tony Gonzalez racking up numbers consistently the way he has? Witten is one of the best talents in the game at TE and him and Romo have an unbelieveable connection, TO leaving is only in fact going to make Witten go back towards the 100 reception mark...There are still plenty of weapons left in Dallas after him, but Romo's stock or production isn't going anywhere.


I also disagree 100% about RW but that's a whole nother story, he'll show people what he's made of when TO is gone, and comparing what he did to Calvin? Come on, Calvin could go anywhere and make the prior WR look silly, it's not really a knock on anyone when your trying to make him look less impressive then the best WR prospect to ever come out...Roy runs a high 4.3, do you think he just forgot how to run? That slow stuff is just false all around, but maybe it was just an accident he ran a 4.37 and had a 1300 yard season.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby joejlitz » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:14 am

Amazinz wrote:Kensat, if you'd be so kind post Cliff Notes for the guys from Philly. :-D

Video clips! Video clips!
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby moochman » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:33 am

LS2throwed wrote:I also disagree 100% about RW but that's a whole nother story, he'll show people what he's made of when TO is gone, and comparing what he did to Calvin? Come on, Calvin could go anywhere and make the prior WR look silly, it's not really a knock on anyone when your trying to make him look less impressive then the best WR prospect to ever come out...Roy runs a high 4.3, do you think he just forgot how to run? That slow stuff is just false all around, but maybe it was just an accident he ran a 4.37 and had a 1300 yard season.



Roy is fast enough for sure, his 40 times were no accident. But what troubles me about Roy is that under a Martz pass happy he gained 1,300 yds, but once there was any pass receiving competition his numbers dropped significantly. 800 yds the next season. He looked to me to have been discouraged by the presence of Calvin Johnson and rather than embracing the challenge, Roy shrank. TO or not there will be Witten. Which Roy will show up? 800yds or 1,300?
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby LS2throwed » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:39 pm

moochman wrote:
LS2throwed wrote:I also disagree 100% about RW but that's a whole nother story, he'll show people what he's made of when TO is gone, and comparing what he did to Calvin? Come on, Calvin could go anywhere and make the prior WR look silly, it's not really a knock on anyone when your trying to make him look less impressive then the best WR prospect to ever come out...Roy runs a high 4.3, do you think he just forgot how to run? That slow stuff is just false all around, but maybe it was just an accident he ran a 4.37 and had a 1300 yard season.



Roy is fast enough for sure, his 40 times were no accident. But what troubles me about Roy is that under a Martz pass happy he gained 1,300 yds, but once there was any pass receiving competition his numbers dropped significantly. 800 yds the next season. He looked to me to have been discouraged by the presence of Calvin Johnson and rather than embracing the challenge, Roy shrank. TO or not there will be Witten. Which Roy will show up? 800yds or 1,300?




Well I'm not going to hold his first two seasons against him by any standard, those are actually very good numbers for a WR in their 2nd and 3rd seasons, as a rookie 800 yards and 8 TD's, as a sophmore WR 680 yards and 8 TD's, then in his 3rd year he broke out with 1300 yards and 7 TD's..In 2007 Calvin came in and it was obvious the team was going in his direction once he got going which was fine, Calvin is by far the superior WR as he would be in any situation, and Roy hurt his knee towards the end of that season but without that he was still on pace for 1100 yards and about 8 TD's even with Calvin around.


I'm not buying that all of a sudden he can't play WR anymore, everyone gets caught up in here and now and let's a few games sway their opinin even though the guy has produced his entire career...Were not talking Reggie Williams here who has never topped 50 catches, or 600 yards where his only highlight is scoring 10 TD's a few years ago, even when Roy first came when Brad Johnson was at QB he scored early in the year vs Tampa Bay on a classic jump ball in the endzone, easy TD over Buchanon, yet we never called that play again.


He's a threat around the red-zone and always has been, he needs to be given those chances, I certainly don't think Roy Williams is Fitzgerald or Boldin and frankly I think even Jerry would prefer Boldin over Roy but to act like he's some below average WR baffles me...But when he moves back to the X spot in TO's position I'm positive people will change their mind.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby mattb47 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:25 pm

I just don't see much effort out there from Roy when I watch him play. There are those players that you can tell just go all out all the time to make plays for their team, guys like Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, Hines Ward, etc who will make any catch they have to and aren't going to ever "quit" on their team. I just don't see that from Roy and while he has some talent, it looks to me like he's getting slower, less explosive, and he's working less and less hard over time which is a bad trend to be continuing.

Logic would have told you that upon moving from Detroit to Dallas we would see him play harder, more inspired football but I saw virtually no change whatsoever. I just don't think he has the mindset to be an elite WR or even a positive player for his team in the sense of being able to do things even when he's not catching the football. I don't see him get separation hardly EVER against CBs and there's no real explosiveness at all in his game...I think people are going to continue to be exceptionally disappointed in a WR who will continue to underachieve. You only get so many "free passes" on things until people have to finally conclude that he's just not going anywhere...I mean 1 season with over 1000 yards and only 1 season with even 65 or more receptions is pitiful for a guy who is supposed to be as talented as he is and has played 5 seasons in this league. Never had double digit TDs in his career...so for being a good red zone threat he sure doesn't deliver in the red zone.

What has he ever proven to be considered anything more than a mediocre receiver?
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