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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby Kensat30 » Tue Feb 17, 2009 6:20 pm

mattb47 wrote:I just don't see much effort out there from Roy when I watch him play. There are those players that you can tell just go all out all the time to make plays for their team, guys like Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, Hines Ward, etc who will make any catch they have to and aren't going to ever "quit" on their team. I just don't see that from Roy and while he has some talent, it looks to me like he's getting slower, less explosive, and he's working less and less hard over time which is a bad trend to be continuing.

Logic would have told you that upon moving from Detroit to Dallas we would see him play harder, more inspired football but I saw virtually no change whatsoever. I just don't think he has the mindset to be an elite WR or even a positive player for his team in the sense of being able to do things even when he's not catching the football. I don't see him get separation hardly EVER against CBs and there's no real explosiveness at all in his game...I think people are going to continue to be exceptionally disappointed in a WR who will continue to underachieve. You only get so many "free passes" on things until people have to finally conclude that he's just not going anywhere...I mean 1 season with over 1000 yards and only 1 season with even 65 or more receptions is pitiful for a guy who is supposed to be as talented as he is and has played 5 seasons in this league. Never had double digit TDs in his career...so for being a good red zone threat he sure doesn't deliver in the red zone.

What has he ever proven to be considered anything more than a mediocre receiver?


I saw the same thing happening in Dallas and in the 1.5 years he was in Detroit playing second fiddle to Calvin. This guy just does not have the will to be a real threat in the NFL. And frankly with his lack of speed and acceleration he doesn't have the talent either.

The guy put up "big" numbers in a Mike Martz offense one single year. He has shown flashes of ability, but a bunch of glimmers of talent don't add up to a great WR. I bet this is a guy who can glide through practice at half speed, make one acrobatic catch and feel good about his day. Because THAT is the type of player Roy Williams is on game day.
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Say what you will about TO having lost a step, but how many WRs in the game score 10 TDs in a season even once. How many TEs in the game score 10 TDs in a season. Roy Williams sure hasn't. Jason Witten hasn't. Michael Irvin did once. Tony Gonzalez has three times. Maybe that is why he is considered by many to be the best TE to ever put on a uniform in the NFL.Terrell Owens has scored ten TDs in a season EIGHT times including all three seasons he has been in Dallas. He did it this year with a geriatric Brad Johnson throwing passes in a quarter of the games.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby LS2throwed » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:10 pm

Kensat30 wrote:
mattb47 wrote:I just don't see much effort out there from Roy when I watch him play. There are those players that you can tell just go all out all the time to make plays for their team, guys like Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, Hines Ward, etc who will make any catch they have to and aren't going to ever "quit" on their team. I just don't see that from Roy and while he has some talent, it looks to me like he's getting slower, less explosive, and he's working less and less hard over time which is a bad trend to be continuing.

Logic would have told you that upon moving from Detroit to Dallas we would see him play harder, more inspired football but I saw virtually no change whatsoever. I just don't think he has the mindset to be an elite WR or even a positive player for his team in the sense of being able to do things even when he's not catching the football. I don't see him get separation hardly EVER against CBs and there's no real explosiveness at all in his game...I think people are going to continue to be exceptionally disappointed in a WR who will continue to underachieve. You only get so many "free passes" on things until people have to finally conclude that he's just not going anywhere...I mean 1 season with over 1000 yards and only 1 season with even 65 or more receptions is pitiful for a guy who is supposed to be as talented as he is and has played 5 seasons in this league. Never had double digit TDs in his career...so for being a good red zone threat he sure doesn't deliver in the red zone.

What has he ever proven to be considered anything more than a mediocre receiver?


I saw the same thing happening in Dallas and in the 1.5 years he was in Detroit playing second fiddle to Calvin. This guy just does not have the will to be a real threat in the NFL. And frankly with his lack of speed and acceleration he doesn't have the talent either.

The guy put up "big" numbers in a Mike Martz offense one single year. He has shown flashes of ability, but a bunch of glimmers of talent don't add up to a great WR. I bet this is a guy who can glide through practice at half speed, make one acrobatic catch and feel good about his day. Because THAT is the type of player Roy Williams is on game day.
-------

Say what you will about TO having lost a step, but how many WRs in the game score 10 TDs in a season even once. How many TEs in the game score 10 TDs in a season. Roy Williams sure hasn't. Jason Witten hasn't. Michael Irvin did once. Tony Gonzalez has three times. Maybe that is why he is considered by many to be the best TE to ever put on a uniform in the NFL.Terrell Owens has scored ten TDs in a season EIGHT times including all three seasons he has been in Dallas. He did it this year with a geriatric Brad Johnson throwing passes in a quarter of the games.




You guys keep saying he put up "one" big year under Martz, did you want him to post 1400 yds and 15 TD's as a rookie, or in his 2nd year? Why should he be penalized because he didn't erupt his first 2 years in the league(which were still pretty productive as far as scoring TD's is concerned)...If you want to hold 2008 against him fine, but his first 3 years of the league nobody should be griping, frankly he was right on schedule and you shouldn't be using the stat argument against him, in 07 he missed 4 games and every one knew Calvin was getting lions share of targets.


Also keep in mind he was suffering from plantar fasciitis down the stretch and that injury made Mario Williams look average too...Hey I'm a realist though, 09 is put up or shut up time point blank no way around it, but to keep throwing the production argument in his face I don't get...I expect him to bounce back since people are questioning his skills though, but that's just me obviously.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby mattb47 » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:48 am

How long can we make excuses for him? A great WR puts up great numbers and raises the level of the team he's on...Williams has never done that and has done nothing to earn a free pass for any of the seasons he's played maybe outside of his first season. After a WR "breaks out" he shouldn't take HUGE steps back like Williams did...it just looked like he was content with how he played that year and he may never get back to those kinds of numbers again. He's just not that good.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby moochman » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:32 pm

Ken and Matt, Roy is a very smooth running receiver. This makes him look like he isn't going that fast or going all out. He does have above average speed and great hands. He is a real good WR, just not in the class of a TO. What Roy seems to lack most is the a work ethic. He doesn't battle hard to get off the line and hates inside routes. The man just doesn't want to get hit, maybe mentally too soft. But he does have above average skills.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby mattb47 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:18 am

moochman wrote:Ken and Matt, Roy is a very smooth running receiver. This makes him look like he isn't going that fast or going all out. He does have above average speed and great hands. He is a real good WR, just not in the class of a TO. What Roy seems to lack most is the a work ethic. He doesn't battle hard to get off the line and hates inside routes. The man just doesn't want to get hit, maybe mentally too soft. But he does have above average skills.


I was speaking more about his lack of work ethic more than anything else...I do think he lacks true "explosiveness" though that really gives the separation that the upper tiered WR get. It's different than speed and while he might have a decent amount of speed, I find explosiveness to be far more important for NFL WRs.

Poor work ethic, being a soft player, and mediocre explosiveness to get separation equals a mediocre at best WR in this league.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby Kensat30 » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:20 pm

moochman wrote:Ken and Matt, Roy is a very smooth running receiver. This makes him look like he isn't going that fast or going all out. He does have above average speed and great hands. He is a real good WR, just not in the class of a TO. What Roy seems to lack most is the a work ethic. He doesn't battle hard to get off the line and hates inside routes. The man just doesn't want to get hit, maybe mentally too soft. But he does have above average skills.


I have never once seen Roy Williams beat anyone deep in the NFL. Maybe out-jumped someone in the endzone or down the field, but never BEAT someone. Sure, the guy is good, even very good after the catch, but he just doesn't outrun guys. I don't think he really outran guys even in college. I don't deny that he's a decent, perhaps even a good NFL WR, but he is far from a GREAT WR IMO. The only way this guy is getting seperation is in soft coverage. And the only way this guy is breaking a long TD is if he breaks a few tackles on the way there, or if he outjumps somebody for it.

What do you make of the press conference where Roy Williams said that the Lions practice harder than the Cowboys? Or when he said that the offensive playbook in Dallas was "easy"? I know MOST WRs who change teams don't normally do well in their first year, but where did Roy vanish to? It's just strange to hear those things coming out of his mouth and then he struggles to do anything at all in Dallas. If you open your mouth, I sure hope you can back it up because otherwise people are going to question how good you really are. This is the type of guy who should live off the inside route and yards after the catch. His skillset suits him to the type of plays that were being called last year in Dallas. Supposedly TO was getting bumped at the line and shadowed deep by a safety on every play, so shouldn't Roy have been wide open to do what he does on the other side?

I think there are a lot of guys in the NFL who can make plays with the ball in their hands just like Roy. Many of these guys can outrun other guys, some of them are great at juking defenders, and some break tackles and get yards after the catch. But for a WR, getting open and beating the defense is more important than what you do with the ball after you catch it. That's why we see guys like Troy Williamson and Ted Ginn get drafted in the top10 in the NFL draft. Everybody wants a player that can get open and make it easy for the QB to make a read and throw the pass to open man. I think as a TE, if he didn't have to block, Roy Williams could be one of the best ever. You don't have to get as open at the TE position, you just need to find the soft spot and make the play when the ball comes. As a WR I think Roy struggles to be a good player. He is nowhere near the level of threat a guy like TO is, a guy that can do everything Roy does but can also outrun people and beat players in a one on one matchup down the field.

It's like in fantasy, the value of a stud RB outweighs a STABLE of good RBs. TO brings to the table what Roy Williams and Patrick Crayton/Miles Austin combined can bring, but he only takes up one position on the field. Jason Witten is the guy you need to find soft spots in coverage. And if you want to rely on a weapon who relies on soft spots in coverage for the majority of your production, the offense is going to suffer for it.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby joejlitz » Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:26 am

Jerry Jones' gag order on Phillips hurts Dallas Cowboys
Tim Cowlishaw
12:11 AM CST on Saturday, February 21, 2009

...In what I suppose is an effort (misguided as it is) to plug some of the leaks at Valley Ranch, Jones continues to emasculate his head coach...It could never, ever happen, not to a powerful and successful head coach...

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 384f9.html
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby moochman » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:18 pm

Kensat30 wrote:
moochman wrote:Ken and Matt, Roy is a very smooth running receiver. This makes him look like he isn't going that fast or going all out. He does have above average speed and great hands. He is a real good WR, just not in the class of a TO. What Roy seems to lack most is the a work ethic. He doesn't battle hard to get off the line and hates inside routes. The man just doesn't want to get hit, maybe mentally too soft. But he does have above average skills.


I have never once seen Roy Williams beat anyone deep in the NFL. Maybe out-jumped someone in the endzone or down the field, but never BEAT someone. Sure, the guy is good, even very good after the catch, but he just doesn't outrun guys. I don't think he really outran guys even in college. I don't deny that he's a decent, perhaps even a good NFL WR, but he is far from a GREAT WR IMO. The only way this guy is getting seperation is in soft coverage. And the only way this guy is breaking a long TD is if he breaks a few tackles on the way there, or if he outjumps somebody for it.

What do you make of the press conference where Roy Williams said that the Lions practice harder than the Cowboys? Or when he said that the offensive playbook in Dallas was "easy"? I know MOST WRs who change teams don't normally do well in their first year, but where did Roy vanish to? It's just strange to hear those things coming out of his mouth and then he struggles to do anything at all in Dallas. If you open your mouth, I sure hope you can back it up because otherwise people are going to question how good you really are. This is the type of guy who should live off the inside route and yards after the catch. His skillset suits him to the type of plays that were being called last year in Dallas. Supposedly TO was getting bumped at the line and shadowed deep by a safety on every play, so shouldn't Roy have been wide open to do what he does on the other side?

I think there are a lot of guys in the NFL who can make plays with the ball in their hands just like Roy. Many of these guys can outrun other guys, some of them are great at juking defenders, and some break tackles and get yards after the catch. But for a WR, getting open and beating the defense is more important than what you do with the ball after you catch it. That's why we see guys like Troy Williamson and Ted Ginn get drafted in the top10 in the NFL draft. Everybody wants a player that can get open and make it easy for the QB to make a read and throw the pass to open man. I think as a TE, if he didn't have to block, Roy Williams could be one of the best ever. You don't have to get as open at the TE position, you just need to find the soft spot and make the play when the ball comes. As a WR I think Roy struggles to be a good player. He is nowhere near the level of threat a guy like TO is, a guy that can do everything Roy does but can also outrun people and beat players in a one on one matchup down the field.

It's like in fantasy, the value of a stud RB outweighs a STABLE of good RBs. TO brings to the table what Roy Williams and Patrick Crayton/Miles Austin combined can bring, but he only takes up one position on the field. Jason Witten is the guy you need to find soft spots in coverage. And if you want to rely on a weapon who relies on soft spots in coverage for the majority of your production, the offense is going to suffer for it.


I thought that pressor was strange. But I do know that Marinelli had the Lions practice hard. They just didn't practice well. Sounds to me like the Cowboys are a very soft team in practice and it seems like they are on game day as well.
I have seen Roy beat CBs deep, but what keeps him from being known as more of a deep threat is that he refuses to work through bump and run coverage. He doesn't get deep because he doesn't get going. His lack of toughness will keep him from ever maximizing his ability. Don't think I have ever said anything about Roy doing anything spectacular after the catch. He drops pretty easily when hit.
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby stomperrob » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:08 pm

Let's keep stirrin' that pot...

How much friendlier can it get for Dallas Cowboys' Romo?
by JeanJacquesTaylor
dallasnews.com
10:39 AM CST on Wednesday, February 25, 2009

Let me get this straight: Jerry Jones wants to make the Cowboys more Tony Romo-friendly next season?

Is that even possible? And what exactly does that mean? After all, Romo has one of the best gigs in pro sports.

Let's see, seven of the other 10 starters have combined for 22 Pro Bowl appearances. If Jerry can trade or sign Pro Bowl players at left guard, right tackle and fullback, then every offensive player will have played in at least one Pro Bowl.

Jerry could add Mike Shanahan, Mike Holmgren and Jon Gruden to the coaching staff – assuming they don't have to punch a time clock – and conduct a weekly séance over a Ouija board so Jason Garrett can regularly pick Bill Walsh's brain.

Then Romo won't have to ever worry about Garrett needing three quarters to dissect a defense, which is what he said happened against Baltimore in the last game at Texas Stadium. Or he won't have to worry about Garrett's protection scheme being exposed like he said it was against Philadelphia.

con't...

rest of article: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... nts_anchor
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Re: Cowboys - A team in turmoil

Postby LS2throwed » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:32 pm

Since JJT is one of the worst beat writers we have for the Cowboys and never seems to grasp a simple concept, Jerry was talking about what I mentioned earlier, getting Tony out of the pocket more, bootlegs, quick release passes, Garrett got away from that and consistent did 5 and 7 step drops back in the middle of the pocket.


JJT is a pessimist and he's one of the guys who always wants to find fault in every comment someone from the team makes.
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