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Good guys win again

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Re: Good guys win again

Postby Madison » Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:11 am

joejlitz wrote:Is it me, or does Matthias consistantly get involved in these? :-b


:-X

:-b

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Madison wrote:You're a lawyer?


He only mentions it in every thread. :-b


First I had heard it and I've run into him before. But it does make things interesting for future conversations that I'm sure he and I will have. B-)

Matthias wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Madison wrote:You're a lawyer?

He only mentions it in every thread. :-b

Only when someone is talking beyond their depth. And that's beyond my control.


Beyond my depth? You sir should have a jester icon. :-b I'm not the one protecting scumbags and trying to go after the good guy who prevented a crime. And law abiding citizens will be shooting and killing more scumbags in the act. I fully expect that trend to continue and the country to be a better and safer place because of that. So thank God most people don't agree with you on prosecuting the good guys and protecting the scumbag filth in this country. :-)
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Re: Good guys win again

Postby joejlitz » Sun Mar 29, 2009 6:42 am

To get this thread back on track, let me reiterate:

joejlitz wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote: I wouldn't escalate an armed robbery to a shoot-out unless it was absolutely necessary to prevent loss of life.

Winner. ;-D

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Re: Good guys win again

Postby Matthias » Sun Mar 29, 2009 7:03 am

Omaha Red Sox wrote:Wow. Matthias > Humility. Takes a big man to think himself a big man.

I don't think of myself as a big man, just you as a small one. :-b
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Re: Good guys win again

Postby Omaha Red Sox » Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:49 am

Matthias wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:Wow. Matthias > Humility. Takes a big man to think himself a big man.

I don't think of myself as a big man, just you as a small one. :-b


Glad you got me pegged Matthias.
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Re: Good guys win again

Postby joejlitz » Sun Mar 29, 2009 10:40 am

Omaha Red Sox wrote:
Matthias wrote:
Omaha Red Sox wrote:Wow. Matthias > Humility. Takes a big man to think himself a big man.

I don't think of myself as a big man, just you as a small one. :-b


Glad you got me pegged Matthias.

Matthias - this is where you say, "That's what she said!" :-b
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Re: Good guys win again

Postby stomperrob » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:29 pm

Thought I'd chip in with a viewpoint (mine) from the Great White North (Canada)...

Being a Canadian, my perspective is somewhat unique I imagine. Only police officers and armoured car guards are allowed to carry guns here - everyone else is forbidden, even security guards. A person can apply to own a handgun after going through a training course and passing a security clearance by the police - no one can get a permit to carry a handgun, you can only get a permit to carry the handgun from your home to an approved range by the shortest possible route - it must be unloaded and not on your person. Even police officers are not allowed to carry their guns off duty, with the exception of some undercover officers who are considered to be at risk if they ran into the suspects they are working on.

As to the argument that private citizens may be better trained in using their handguns than police, I find that to be an over generalization that may or may not be true. What is true is that training on the range teaches accuracy only, it cannot prepare you for the stress of an armed confrontration. That only comes with first hand experience, something even rookie police officers need to learn, hence the need for shooting practice under stressful conditions, and working on the street with a senior officer to gain first hand experience. A citizen just doesn't have that. Being a good shot on a practice range doesn't guarantee you will be a good shot when someone is shooting back at you!!!

This citizen in this story seems to be an example of a bad example - starting an argument with the robbery suspect instead of immediately taking control of the situation. In some ways it may have been wiser just to come up behind the suspect and cold cock him over the head with your gun, lol! If the suspect was not threatening anyone with his gun but merely displaying it, it would definitely have been wiser to allow the suspect to leave the premises before taking action to minimize the risk to innocent bystanders. I don't have a problem with people using a gun to protect themselves and their property when they're at home, I'm just not convinced it's a good idea when citizens get involved in shootouts in public - too many things can go wrong because of their inexperience in dealing with such situations (For example there have been terrible tragedies where undercover officers have been killed by uniform personnel who misread the situation - the potential for this type of accident increases when citizens decide to intervene in armed confrontations). A well trained police officer is taught to use the minimum amount of force necessary and escalate as required - armed citizens, regardless how well meaning, often tend to react immediately with maximum force.

If everything turns out alright, then everyone is happy. I just see too much margin for error when citizens choose to take the law into their own hands - they put themselves and everyone around them at great risk. The average citizen just does not have the experience in high risk scenarios to know the best possible approach (and also have a backup plan) to a multitude of possible situations to guarantee the best possible outcome. If anything, they are probably most likely to rely on something they saw on TV or in a movie, which of course is so far removed from reality that it is likely to get themselves and/or innocent bystander(s) killed needlessly.

Leave policing to the police, use deadly force only when there is no safer alternative, or when it is necessary for the protection of someone's life, not to save a few bucks for some burger joint.

And that's just my $0.02 worth! :-?
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Re: Good guys win again

Postby Nfl Fan » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:49 pm

stomperrob wrote:If everything turns out alright, then everyone is happy. I just see too much margin for error when citizens choose to take the law into their own hands - they put themselves and everyone around them at great risk. The average citizen just does not not have the experience in high risk scenarios to know the best possible approach (and also have a backup plan) to a multitude of possible situations to guarantee the best possible outcome. If anything, they are probably most likely to rely on something they saw on TV or in a movie, which of course is so far removed from reality that it is likely to get themselves and/or innocent bystander(s) killed needlessly.


Good point. ;-D

I had a wierd situation a couple weeks ago. I'm downstairs at my house and heard screaming a couple blocks up the street. It didn't sound good at all. It sounded like angry men. My reaction was to go see what was up, but my next thought was to grab my 357 just in case I wound up in a situation where I wished I had it. That would not be good. It turned out to be a screaming match between a kid and his dad and didn't turn out to be a dangerous situation.

Point is:

1) You're right. Though I'm fairly able with a firearm, I have neither the training or expertise to adequately handle more than a very basic situation.

- but -

2) If, in fact, somebody was getting raped or abducted or whatever; I could have possibly interrupted the situation enough to maybe save a person from a tragic ending.

Nevertheless, it's the first time I've ever had the thing out for any reason other than loading, cleaning, etc.. The purpose of a firearm in your home is protection... and the hope is that you never have to use it.
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Re: Good guys win again

Postby Madison » Tue Mar 31, 2009 4:54 pm

stomperrob wrote:As to the argument that private citizens may be better trained in using their handguns than police, I find that to be an over generalization that may or may not be true.


Guess I need to re-read this thread as I don't remember anyone saying that. :-D

stomperrob wrote:This citizen in this story seems to be an example of a bad example - starting an argument with the robbery suspect instead of immediately taking control of the situation. In some ways it may have been wiser just to come up behind the suspect and cold cock him over the head with your gun, lol!


2 things.

#1 - You're assuming the good guy started the argument. For all we know, he simply said something like "Hey, there are kids here, you don't need to flash the gun to get what you want. Just take the money and go.", to which the crook freaked out (drugged up, desperate, scared to death, or whatever other reason) and an argument ensued.

#2 - He's not a suspect, he really was robbing the place. :-b
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Re: Good guys win again

Postby stomperrob » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:00 pm

Madison wrote:
stomperrob wrote:As to the argument that private citizens may be better trained in using their handguns than police, I find that to be an over generalization that may or may not be true.


Guess I need to re-read this thread as I don't remember anyone saying that. :-D

stomperrob wrote:This citizen in this story seems to be an example of a bad example - starting an argument with the robbery suspect instead of immediately taking control of the situation. In some ways it may have been wiser just to come up behind the suspect and cold cock him over the head with your gun, lol!


2 things.

#1 - You're assuming the good guy started the argument. For all we know, he simply said something like "Hey, there are kids here, you don't need to flash the gun to get what you want. Just take the money and go.", to which the crook freaked out (drugged up, desperate, scared to death, or whatever other reason) and an argument ensued.

#2 - He's not a suspect, he really was robbing the place. :-b


You're right on point 1, I was going on memory, not having read this thread in a week - I'm sure I read that point in another thread here then though, but it's not too important regardless.

And yes, I was assuming the good guy started the argument based on the limited info provided in the news story (and partially on the fact that the good guy got seriously wounded too - I would have suspected that with the element of surprise on his side, he would have "enjoyed" greater success - but again, another supposition on my part). It would be nice if we had more info to go on.

And I don't know why I would use the word suspect, in fact I always hate it when the media use it instead of accused or culprit in these situations. Not like me to get all politically correct, lol!

And once again, as I stated, you must bear in mind that my opinons are colored by the culture in which I was raised, which is significantly different from that of the U.S. when it comes to the issue of firearms. And of course there are always exceptions to the rule - I have no doubt there are citizens out there that are capable of handling themselves in an armed confrontation, I just don't happen to believe they are in the majority.

Now ya have $0.04 worth of my opinion! :-B
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Re: Good guys win again

Postby Madison » Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:28 pm

stomperrob wrote:And once again, as I stated, you must bear in mind that my opinons are colored by the culture in which I was raised


I actually like hearing about how things are in other parts of the world. :-) Found out just yesterday that the cost of living in England is roughly double what it is here in the U.S., which I found interesting.

Canada seems really peaceful from everything I've ever heard. Makes me confused as to all the fighting in hockey. :-b
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I am The Heart of Darkness.
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