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Re: 2009 Season and Beyond discussion

Postby bungle613 » Sat Aug 29, 2009 2:18 pm

It is now
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Poll: Week 3 Stat Correction

Postby thriftyrocker » Wed Sep 30, 2009 11:06 am

In week 3, Chad Pennington fumbled and the ball went out of bounds in the opponent's endzone, causing a touchback.

Fantasy sites are in disagreement on whether this counts as a fumble. Both Yahoo and Fleaflicker list the stat in question as "Fumble Recovery". Yahoo counts it as a fumble recovered, but Fleaflicker does not. The NFL.com listing shows Miami with a "Fumble Lost" but of course cannot credit any individual Charger for the recovered fumble.

I believe the intent of any league scoring is to reward turnovers. If the offense loses the ball - whether from a bad play by them or a good play from the defense - and it changes possession, that is a turnover and should be rewarded as such. This is what happened in the Miami play. A bad play by the QB caused a turnover, and the SD defense should be rewarded 2 points for regaining possession.

The fumble would have had the same effect in the game if a Charger had fallen on the ball while it was in the endzone - turnover and touchback. If a SD player had stripped the ball and smacked it out of the endzone - a smart play to prevent the chance of Miami recovering it - under Flea's interpretation of a "recovery" the defense would not get any fantasy points for the play.

This type of play is rare, but it is not that rare. I remember Todd Pinkston doing it once. This scoring difference has an effect on our week 3 games, but it could easily happen again this year or in future years. I would like to determine by vote how to score this, both to remove any doubt about week 3 and to make sure this isn't an issue again.
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Re: Poll: Week 3 Stat Correction

Postby bungle613 » Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:58 pm

Not sure if you did this or not but you should send out a blast email as well. I voted but you need everyone to vote to get anything accomplished here Thrifty.
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Re: Poll: Week 3 Stat Correction

Postby thriftyrocker » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:07 pm

I thought I did that by clicking "email league" when posting on Flea. I guess i'll try through the Cafe.
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Re: Poll: Week 3 Stat Correction

Postby bungle613 » Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:14 pm

thriftyrocker wrote:I thought I did that by clicking "email league" when posting on Flea. I guess i'll try through the Cafe.


Yeah, I meant to say PM not email. I use a dummy email account for FF stuff. Rarely look at it.
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Re: Poll: Week 3 Stat Correction

Postby aaawall91 » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:05 pm

Honestly don't know, just not going to vote....
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Re: Poll: Week 3 Stat Correction

Postby Kareighuis » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:49 pm

I think the important thing is consistency.

Alright, this is what the Pennington play-by-play looked like-
2-1-SD 1 (1:27) 10-C.Pennington FUMBLES (Aborted) at SD 1, ball out of bounds in End Zone, Touchback.

There was a play like this one week earlier, in the NO/Phi game-
4-14-NO 1 (3:41) 9-D.Brees right end to NO -9 for -10 yards. FUMBLES, ball out of bounds in End Zone, SAFETY.

Fleaflicker scored the Brees play as a safety, but not a fumble-

1 point for every Sack applied to 2 Sacks 2
2 points for every Interception applied to 1 Interception 2
2 points for every Safety applied to 1 Safety 2
-4 extra points when total Offensive Points Allowed (FG, Pass TD, Rush TD) is greater than or equal to 28 applied to 36 Offensive Points Allowed (FG, Pass TD, Rush TD) -4
Total 2

While there is a difference (the Brees fumble occurred in the endzone, resulting in a safety), they were both fumbles and both times the ball fumbled out of bounds in the endzone. So, I'd say the play shouldn't be counted as a fumble recovery, because a previous play almost exactly like it wasn't counted as a fumble recovery either.
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Re: Poll: Week 3 Stat Correction

Postby thriftyrocker » Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:49 pm

No hard feelings either way, but just to argue my point.

A safety is not a turnover. It is NFL points scored followed by a bastardized kickoff.

A fumble through the other endzone is a turnover. It is a touchback. Same as if a physical player recovered the ball in the endzone.

I think the consistent way of thinking it is...

If a safety fumble out of bounds is scored the same as a safety tackle in bounds

then a fumble turnover out-of-bounds should count the same as a fumble turnover in-bounds.

A safety is a safety and a fumble turnover is a fumble turnover.

As I stated in the first post, it is my belief the intent of the scoring is to reward turnovers resulting from fumbles. It was a turnover. NFL.com lists it as a "fumble lost."

;-D :-t

Kareighuis wrote:I think the important thing is consistency.

Alright, this is what the Pennington play-by-play looked like-
2-1-SD 1 (1:27) 10-C.Pennington FUMBLES (Aborted) at SD 1, ball out of bounds in End Zone, Touchback.

There was a play like this one week earlier, in the NO/Phi game-
4-14-NO 1 (3:41) 9-D.Brees right end to NO -9 for -10 yards. FUMBLES, ball out of bounds in End Zone, SAFETY.

Fleaflicker scored the Brees play as a safety, but not a fumble-

1 point for every Sack applied to 2 Sacks 2
2 points for every Interception applied to 1 Interception 2
2 points for every Safety applied to 1 Safety 2
-4 extra points when total Offensive Points Allowed (FG, Pass TD, Rush TD) is greater than or equal to 28 applied to 36 Offensive Points Allowed (FG, Pass TD, Rush TD) -4
Total 2

While there is a difference (the Brees fumble occurred in the endzone, resulting in a safety), they were both fumbles and both times the ball fumbled out of bounds in the endzone. So, I'd say the play shouldn't be counted as a fumble recovery, because a previous play almost exactly like it wasn't counted as a fumble recovery either.
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Re: Poll: Week 3 Stat Correction

Postby LS2throwed » Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:21 am

Voted to give the pts to the defense, 1st option.
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Re: Poll: Week 3 Stat Correction

Postby bungle613 » Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:20 pm

As I have told Thrifty via PM it is a tricky situation. 2 large sites scored it differently which is the issue I am having issues with.

The way I see it is...

It is counted against Penny as a fumble and lost but...

1) It was not a forced fumble by San Diego
2) IT was not recovered by San Diego but by a Fish but out of bounds.

I looked at the stats and no one is credited for forcing a fumble or recovering a fumble. Why should the D/ST be rewarded for something they essentially had nothign to do with. They did not force the fumble or recover the fumble why give them points.
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