Denver RBC - Fantasy Football Cafe 2014 Fantasy Football Cafe


Return to Football Talk

Denver RBC

Moderator: Football Moderators

Re: Denver RBC

Postby Timbathia » Thu May 07, 2009 12:02 am

Bowlen is an owner, not a coach or a GM. Look what happens when owners get what THEY want in the draft (see Raiders, Oakland). Bowlen isnt that kind of an owner. Bowlen might be surprised about the players in the draft, but how does that suddenly mean he wants to fire him? McDaniels job is not in any danger from Bowlen because of what has transpired so far. If the Broncos dont perform in the next 3 years, then it will be, but that would be the same for any new coach. The rookie mistakes that Bowlen said McDaniels made were in relation to how he dealt with Cutler, nothing at all to do with free agent acquisitions, the change in offensive and defensive schemes, or the draft.

Our franchise QB was a poor fit for the new offense Denver wants to bring in. There are so many players each year talked about in trades, and almost all of them turn up back to work and try to show their value to the organisation. Cutler wanted to throw a hissy fit instead. He is gone. Most of this is on him and his agent.

How is the failings of past Belicheck assistants concrete proof that McDaniels will fail? This is such a weak argument that gets spouted around all the time. Just like at draft time you hear about how players from this college never/always bust in the NFLl, etc. It is the catch cry of someone too lazy to look at each situation on his merits, but generalises at every opportunity.

Denvers defense already has better personnel than last season. They have 4 starters that are better than last year in Dawkins, Hill, Goodman and Ayers. They also have better special teams personnel this year as well through free agency and the draft.

How is taking a RB a luxury pick when you have a buckhalter, jordan and arrington as your best guys? They are all injury-prone, and past their prime, and heck, none of them were that good anyway. Broncos still got their DE at 18.

How is taking a TE pointless when you want to play 2 TE sets, and you require the guy to be an exceptional blocker. Hello, Quinn is an exceptional blocker. Stop going off Mel Kipers draft rankings, and think for a second about how coaches may be interested in taking the players they think fit into their game plan. Scheffler cant block - he doesnt fit properly while Quinn does.

The RB and TE McDaniels added were necessary additions to go along with the high quality o-line and best blocking TE in the NFL (Graham), to give Orton (or whoever the QB is) enough time to find the open receiver. Why do you think Brady and Cassel were so good? Making good decisions is easy when you have time on your side. Add in one of the better possesion receivers (Marshall), Royals speed, an exceptional slot receiver, and a RB with good hands, and I would say after a year of learning the playbook this unit should be pretty good.

and why I think the Broncos will be better in 2 or 3 years than last season is easy - their defense and special teams will be significantly better, and the offense will be more efficient (though with less big play potential admittedly, but much better clock control ability). Shanny's porous defense, woeful special teams and high-powered offense of the last 2 years hasnt even got us into the playoffs.

Easy to give McDaniels a hard time when you never stop to consider he is building a good team for the future rather than trying to cobble one together in time for the season opener. I am happy to take a poor year this year after 3 years of missing playoffs in order to build something capable of winning in the long term.
Timbathia
Offensive Coordinator
Offensive Coordinator

User avatar

Posts: 975
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Geelong, Australia

Re: Denver RBC

Postby LS2throwed » Thu May 07, 2009 5:54 am

Timbathia wrote:Bowlen is an owner, not a coach or a GM. Look what happens when owners get what THEY want in the draft (see Raiders, Oakland). Bowlen isnt that kind of an owner. Bowlen might be surprised about the players in the draft, but how does that suddenly mean he wants to fire him? McDaniels job is not in any danger from Bowlen because of what has transpired so far. If the Broncos dont perform in the next 3 years, then it will be, but that would be the same for any new coach. The rookie mistakes that Bowlen said McDaniels made were in relation to how he dealt with Cutler, nothing at all to do with free agent acquisitions, the change in offensive and defensive schemes, or the draft.


How do you know what he was talking about with the "rookie mistakes" comment? Bowlen himself never stated exactly, so how would you know what exact aspect he was talking about? I also never said it meant he wanted to fire him, I said it took all of what, 2 months for Bowlen to start to question the direction McDaniels is taking this team, that's not normal. Usually guys are spouting off confidence in their guy this soon, Bowlen is already talking like McDaniels has been there for a few years and he's unsure about his direction.



How is the failings of past Belicheck assistants concrete proof that McDaniels will fail? This is such a weak argument that gets spouted around all the time. Just like at draft time you hear about how players from this college never/always bust in the NFLl, etc. It is the catch cry of someone too lazy to look at each situation on his merits, but generalises at every opportunity.


I never said it was concrete, but you cannot ignore that track record, does it mean he will fail? No. Never stated it would, but he certainly hasn't done anything to suggest that he'll differ from that path...And what situation was I "too lazy" to look at individually? Which one of those coaches got a bad rap? Or didn't get a fair shot? They all had more then a few chances, and didn't show anything for their team to keep them around, none of them were fired unjustly.



Denvers defense already has better personnel than last season. They have 4 starters that are better than last year in Dawkins, Hill, Goodman and Ayers. They also have better special teams personnel this year as well through free agency and the draft.



Well gee, you think? They cut almost 9 starters from that D last year, and outside of Champ Bailey and DJ Williams it wasn't hard to upgrade...4 starters? Wow. You could of pulled names out of a hat in the draft and ended up with 4 better starters then you had last year, that was the easy part, no matter who you drafted or signed.


How is taking a RB a luxury pick when you have a buckhalter, jordan and arrington as your best guys? They are all injury-prone, and past their prime, and heck, none of them were that good anyway. Broncos still got their DE at 18.


So I guess the only way you can get a Rb is with a 1st rounder? Or with your firsts pick none the less? There are backs every year that come out of nowhere, hell you take Glenn Coffee and you have an improvement, Shonn Greene, Rashad Jennings, you could of even took a few fliers on UDFA's that would of made a difference. You have the 12th pick in the draft where you can take a difference maker on defense, you know, the terrible side of the ball you continually point out about how bad it was?


Moreno is a good back, but for a team that had so many holes on defense, which was the problem to begin with, you don't use your first pick on a RB, nobody knows if that will prove to be the right pick, but I feel looking back it will be a head scratcher when you passed up all that talent on the defensive side of the ball.


How is taking a TE pointless when you want to play 2 TE sets, and you require the guy to be an exceptional blocker. Hello, Quinn is an exceptional blocker. Stop going off Mel Kipers draft rankings, and think for a second about how coaches may be interested in taking the players they think fit into their game plan. Scheffler cant block - he doesnt fit properly while Quinn does.



How about you stop generalizing me and assuming, stop going off of Mel Kipers rankings? Yea because I really implied that at some point :-? But let's see how much you really know about the guy:


For one he was considered a late rounder AT BEST, no not off of Mel Kipers board(which again i have no clue where he had him, or what his thought was of the pick, I hate Kiper so I'm still not sure why you even brought him up), but majority had him as a late round pick...You took him in the SECOND ROUND, ummm hello? Your using a 1st and 2nd round pick on a Rb and a blocking TE?!


Need I remind you that you guys traded two 3rd round picks for that blocking TE that you reached on? Yea, because a team with so many defensive holes, really needed to trade away multiple 3rds for a blocking TE, that's the going rate these days I guess. ;-7


Here's an excerpt from Quinn himself:

On where he thought he might end up and if he was surprised to go in the second round:

“Honestly, when the process first came along I thought maybe I would be a free agent and maybe be blessed to have the opportunity to come to a team and try out. It was a big shock and I am thankful for the people who believed in me and God is good, it’s a blessing and I’m just happy to be where I am now.”

http://broncotalk.net/2009/04/broncos-t ... ard-quinn/


Yea, he himself was prepared to be a Free Agent, how many guys other them Michael Mitchel(the Raiders safety) go from potential FA's to 2nd rounders? That has nothing to do with Mel Kipers rankings but thanks for bringing up that pointless remark...If you fail to see how taking a late round, blocking TE in the 2nd round by using multiple 3rds isn't a total fail then your a complete homer...I know Scheffler doesn't fit his scheme, but that has nothing to do what so ever with taking a blocking TE that early, and giving away picks in the process.





Easy to give McDaniels a hard time when you never stop to consider he is building a good team for the future rather than trying to cobble one together in time for the season opener. I am happy to take a poor year this year after 3 years of missing playoffs in order to build something capable of winning in the long term.



That bolded part was hilarious to me...Yea, McDaniels is building for the future so well, that's why he traded YOUR OWN 2010 1st rounder for a Corner this year, in a very weak draft, late in the 30's...But no your right, he's certainly not trying to 'cobble one together in time for the season opener', your right.



Do you realize how stupid that is? Denver is staring a top 10 pick right in the face, maybe top 5, there is no way it will be outside of top 15, yet you want to give up that pick, not the Chicago 1st rounder that will obviously be higher, but your own 1st for a corner? Yea that's certainly building for the future.


You do realize that you pretty much traded Jay Cutler for Alphonso Smith and Richard Quinn right? Take off the homer shades.
Image
Current Cafe Dynasties:
4th and Goal
Fourth & Inches
Double D
Any Given Dynasty
Eat Cheese Dynasty
NFL's Finest
Cafe Very Special Forces
LS2throwed
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterCafe Musketeer
Posts: 5373
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Arlington, Texas

Re: Denver RBC

Postby Timbathia » Thu May 07, 2009 3:38 pm

There is obviously little point in debating Denvers draft - it has received grades ranging from A to F in the media. You hate it while I can see how it helps my team. Good for us.

I cant be bothered going through your points one by one as it obviously wont change your mind on anything. Denver got 2 first rounders this year, picked up Alphonso Smith who they consider to be a first round talent, and still have a first rounder next year. All make us a better team. This year we will find out which defensive players can handle the switch to a 3-4, and where the remaining holes are. The offense is now set, so can learn the new system without any major personnel changes still to come. I see only positives from this.

BTW - we got Orton (a QB with a winning record), Ayers, Smith and Quinn for Cutler (an exceptionally immature QB with a losing record).
Timbathia
Offensive Coordinator
Offensive Coordinator

User avatar

Posts: 975
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Geelong, Australia

Re: Denver RBC

Postby Timbathia » Thu May 07, 2009 4:28 pm

maybe I cant leave this alone, since I am such a homer and all........

- You argument is that because Quinn was preparing to be undrafted that proves he was a reach and a stupid decision by McDaniels. That only proves he is humble, which is somewhat refreshing in the NFL. Scott Wright on NFL draft countdown (well respected site) had him ranked as a second or third rounder. Hardly seems like a reach to me. Yes we traded the Bears third rounder along with ours to get him, but that was a free pick from Chicago, and if Quinn was the highest player on McDaniels board then it was a good decision.

http://www.draftcountdown.com/scoutingr ... -Quinn.php

- when the Broncos were on the clock at #12 there were many DE/OLB available, and no true 3-4 lineman or LBs that were rated particularly highly. All RBs were on the board. I still dont have a problem taking the best fit RB for our offense in the entire draft then and still getting the DE/OLB we wanted at #18. In the other scenario we reach for a questionable LB or d-lineman, or take two DE/OLB players.


Hopefully I am right and in two years we are better than last year. I will be more than happy to say I was wrong if McDaniels loses his job in 2 years time, but I stand by my claims that his decisions arent anywhere near as bad as a lot of people are making out.
Timbathia
Offensive Coordinator
Offensive Coordinator

User avatar

Posts: 975
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Geelong, Australia

Re: Denver RBC

Postby Timbathia » Thu May 07, 2009 4:37 pm

Lastly - I will concede that trading away our first rounder for Smith was a touch arrongant/ambitous. CB is not an immediate need, so I dont agree it was a pick to get ready for this season, but with two old starting CBs it is a short term need. McDaniels has assumed that the Broncos will be picking is a similar spot to the Bears (mid round), thus justifying his decision. Proof wont come for a while on that wisdom. Apparently the d-lineman class next year is very deep in a talented draft class, at least that means we should get a good d-lineman where ever the Bears finish.


Was this thread about RBs in Denver?
Timbathia
Offensive Coordinator
Offensive Coordinator

User avatar

Posts: 975
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Geelong, Australia

Re: Denver RBC

Postby mattUTD20 » Fri May 08, 2009 7:39 am

Timbathia wrote:Was this thread about RBs in Denver?


And now there is one more to talk about. Not sure what to make of this signing, I liked the guy in Houston but what's the point with 5 other guys there? Surely their time could be better alotted to a position in need?

Darius Walker-RB- Broncos May. 7 - 5:40 pm et

Broncos signed RB Darius Walker to a two-year contract.

Walker was a long shot for fantasy value anyway, but Denver is an especially poor fit with three veterans, a first-round pick, and a fullback ahead of him in the competition for carries. He's a long shot to make the team out of training camp.
Source: Rosenhaus Sports
"Maurice Jones-Drew, below the waist, is incredible." Mike Mayock

Cafe Leagues

Eat Cheese Dynasty (Owner: 2 year) CuYr: 2 PvYr: 1
Ball Breakers Keeper (Owner: 2 year) CuYr: 3 PvYr: 2
4th and Goal Dynasty (Owner: 2 year) CuYr: 2 PvYr: 9
mattUTD20
Head Coach
Head Coach

User avatar
Cafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterCafe MusketeerLucky Ladders ChampionCafe Blackjack Weekly Winner
Posts: 1409
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Home Cafe: Football

Re: Denver RBC

Postby Timbathia » Fri May 08, 2009 5:22 pm

mattUTD20 wrote:
Timbathia wrote:Was this thread about RBs in Denver?


And now there is one more to talk about. Not sure what to make of this signing, I liked the guy in Houston but what's the point with 5 other guys there? Surely their time could be better alotted to a position in need?

Darius Walker-RB- Broncos May. 7 - 5:40 pm et

Broncos signed RB Darius Walker to a two-year contract.

Walker was a long shot for fantasy value anyway, but Denver is an especially poor fit with three veterans, a first-round pick, and a fullback ahead of him in the competition for carries. He's a long shot to make the team out of training camp.
Source: Rosenhaus Sports


There is a point since Torain will not be healthy enough to play at the start of the season due to his acl. Jordan is no good and neither is his back. Moore is an UDFA - unlikely he is better than Walker or will make the team. Buckhalter is 30. Hillis is a white fullback. And if Walker is any good on special teams, then this is a great signing.
Timbathia
Offensive Coordinator
Offensive Coordinator

User avatar

Posts: 975
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Geelong, Australia

Re: Denver RBC

Postby LS2throwed » Fri May 08, 2009 5:50 pm

Timbathia wrote:maybe I cant leave this alone, since I am such a homer and all........

- You argument is that because Quinn was preparing to be undrafted that proves he was a reach and a stupid decision by McDaniels. That only proves he is humble, which is somewhat refreshing in the NFL. Scott Wright on NFL draft countdown (well respected site) had him ranked as a second or third rounder. Hardly seems like a reach to me. Yes we traded the Bears third rounder along with ours to get him, but that was a free pick from Chicago, and if Quinn was the highest player on McDaniels board then it was a good decision.

http://www.draftcountdown.com/scoutingr ... -Quinn.php

- when the Broncos were on the clock at #12 there were many DE/OLB available, and no true 3-4 lineman or LBs that were rated particularly highly. All RBs were on the board. I still dont have a problem taking the best fit RB for our offense in the entire draft then and still getting the DE/OLB we wanted at #18. In the other scenario we reach for a questionable LB or d-lineman, or take two DE/OLB players.


Hopefully I am right and in two years we are better than last year. I will be more than happy to say I was wrong if McDaniels loses his job in 2 years time, but I stand by my claims that his decisions arent anywhere near as bad as a lot of people are making out.




I'm not going to argue with you about it, because I'm coming from an unbiased POV and you obviously see everything that Denver does and see it as an amazing move in the right direction for the club who can't do any wrong, that's the way things work as a fan sometime...A year ago you would of probably been jumping at the chance to defend Cutler, and now he's just a "whiny immature QB with a losing record", funny how perceptions change so fast with fans.


And as far as Quinn, this was also in that same scouting report:

Profiles as a prototypical #2 tight end and a blocking specialist at the next level but should really excel in that role.



Does that sound like a 2nd rounder to you? What you fail to realize is that he would of been there at your 3rd rounder anyway, yet you traded away a valuable commodity in another 3rd round pick to grab him...Sorry if I see taking a RB at #12 and a blocking #2 two TE selected in the 2nd round that cost two 3rd rounders as a terrible start, but I'm not surprised that your in love with the pick.


I don't give them an F for the draft, I also don't think every move was terrible, but there have been numerous questionable moves up to this point and all of them cannot be defended...And the guy who is in control of whether or not he keeps his job is already sounding skeptical, vs 100% confident in the direction of the team...He may not be a personnel guy, but he's in control of how long McDaniels has a job, if they end up picking top 10 next year that leash is going to be incredibly short.


Unless you win 7-9 games trading your 1st rounder is going to look even worse...I can only imagine if it ends up being a top 5 and Alphonso Smith turns out to be average, and the Bears pick is in the low 20's.
Image
Current Cafe Dynasties:
4th and Goal
Fourth & Inches
Double D
Any Given Dynasty
Eat Cheese Dynasty
NFL's Finest
Cafe Very Special Forces
LS2throwed
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterCafe Musketeer
Posts: 5373
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Arlington, Texas

Re: Denver RBC

Postby Timbathia » Fri May 08, 2009 10:42 pm

LS2throwed wrote:I'm not going to argue with you about it, because I'm coming from an unbiased POV and you obviously see everything that Denver does and see it as an amazing move in the right direction for the club who can't do any wrong, that's the way things work as a fan sometime...A year ago you would of probably been jumping at the chance to defend Cutler, and now he's just a "whiny immature QB with a losing record", funny how perceptions change so fast with fans.


And as far as Quinn, this was also in that same scouting report:

Profiles as a prototypical #2 tight end and a blocking specialist at the next level but should really excel in that role.



Does that sound like a 2nd rounder to you? What you fail to realize is that he would of been there at your 3rd rounder anyway, yet you traded away a valuable commodity in another 3rd round pick to grab him...Sorry if I see taking a RB at #12 and a blocking #2 two TE selected in the 2nd round that cost two 3rd rounders as a terrible start, but I'm not surprised that your in love with the pick.


I don't give them an F for the draft, I also don't think every move was terrible, but there have been numerous questionable moves up to this point and all of them cannot be defended...And the guy who is in control of whether or not he keeps his job is already sounding skeptical, vs 100% confident in the direction of the team...He may not be a personnel guy, but he's in control of how long McDaniels has a job, if they end up picking top 10 next year that leash is going to be incredibly short.


Unless you win 7-9 games trading your 1st rounder is going to look even worse...I can only imagine if it ends up being a top 5 and Alphonso Smith turns out to be average, and the Bears pick is in the low 20's.


What kind of a comment is that? That I fail to realise Quinn would definitely have been there in the third round. You keep making absurd statements as if they were true. You said he was definitely going to be undrafted a few posts ago, and now after pointing out he had a 2nd or 3rd round grade, you are saying that he would definitely be there in the middle of the third. Maybe he would, but maybe he wouldnt, but to say you know he would be available is just plain dumb - I am sick of pointing out the inaccuracies in all you comments/arguments in every post. You are a complete waste of time to argue with, because there is no substance behind anything you say. You say I am a homer for pointing out a logical reason behind each of McDaniels moves (whether I believe they were right or not is besides the point), but you are unbiased for talking cr@p about the Broncos with continual arguments based on your perceptions (that have never had the full facts behind them).

It is obvious that you are a FFL fan only and have little knowledge about debating or the NFL, so I will stop wasting my time and leave this thread be.
Timbathia
Offensive Coordinator
Offensive Coordinator

User avatar

Posts: 975
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Geelong, Australia

Re: Denver RBC

Postby Kensat30 » Fri May 08, 2009 11:59 pm

Countdown to Ron Dayne signing...
Kensat30
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe Writer
Posts: 6427
Joined: 2 Jun 2004
Home Cafe: Football

PreviousNext

Return to Football Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Start & Sit Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Get Ready...
The 2014 NFL season kicks off in 22:57 hours
(and 34 days)
2014 NFL Schedule


  • Fantasy Football
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact