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Vick to begin workouts

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Re: Vick to begin workouts

Postby moochman » Thu May 21, 2009 9:44 am

deacon wrote:
eaglesrule wrote:Considering all this, I don't think it is absurd to say, you know what? This guy doesn't need to be in the league, because he is a scumbag.



If you used this criteria to then there should be many many more people kicked out of the league.


This is the real issue with trying to say who should and who shouldn't be allowed to play in the league. Goodell wants to rid the league of image tarnishers and probably hopes Vick will screw up so he doesn't have to face the mess of re-instatment or not.
But the problem is that there are others in the league who are doing some unlawful things and some things you may be disgusted with as well. But we still need to field teams, so we can't toss them all out.
As for Vick, I wish him all the best and hope he has learned and reformed. If he is really lucky he may get a chance to play football again, and maybe even succeed. It would be a good think for Vick if he were able to return to the NFL. If he is truly changed he will have a better chance of staying on his recovery path playing football than anything else he may fall into.
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Re: Vick to begin workouts

Postby bungle613 » Thu May 21, 2009 10:16 am

I will say I enjoyed reading that they DROVE him 1200 miles back home.
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Re: Vick to begin workouts

Postby eaglesrule » Thu May 21, 2009 11:22 am

Well, you can't base this regime's decisions on what was previosuly decided. I don't think Little is germane at all because this is Goodell's decision, not Tagliabue's. And yes, I don't think Little should have played. And you do know that in the real world, employers CAN ask if you were convicted of a felony, and elect not to hire you on that basis. You don't have a right to "ply your trade" as such. The NFL would be within its rights and prerogative not let him back if they felt that was the best business decision. Convictions are a matter of public record, and you are allowed to consider it. I love how people (not this form per se, but in the greater dialogue) feel he has some right to play -- no you don't. In many states felons lose the right to vote, the right to bear arms etc.

I wasn't using scumbag as my criteria necessarily, and like I said Little isn't the best example, another commish made that call, and he did it again. But heading what is essentially a criminal enterprise is orders different than someone who drove drunk or beat their wife, if only because those actions can be the result of an emotional, irrational one-off decsion. When you operate like Vick did, it wasn't irrational, accidental or anything like that. Every single time he hosted a fight, placed a bet, tied a dog to a rape stand, killed a loser, accepted money, etc. was a discrete decsision to break the law.

So while I don't think dogs are people, and there are some things that are probably worse on the absoloute morality scale that other players do and got away with, the scope of what Vick did is part of the problem IMO.
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Re: Vick to begin workouts

Postby Art Vandelay » Fri May 22, 2009 11:22 am

It's vindictive and hypocritical for most people to be so huffy about Mike Vick. These same parks where Vick hasn't been playing serve hot dogs, and more pigs die every day under deplorable factory farm conditions than the amount of dogs Vick could kill in a lifetime of dog fighting.

"But... these were dogs!" So? Dogs are no better or more important than chickens and are actually dumber than pigs generally. Dogfighting is an exceptional instance animal cruelty but exceptional injustice is hardly more representative or awful than the quotidian kind.

Man, do "dog lovers" annoy me!

Anyway, give Mike Vick another shot. It's just mean self-righteousness to not do so. The fetishization of dogs in this country is beyond ridiculous. If Vick would have killed an equal amount of, say, squirrels, nobody would care.


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Re: Vick to begin workouts

Postby eaglesrule » Fri May 22, 2009 11:44 am

Art Vandelay wrote:It's vindictive and hypocritical for most people to be so huffy about Mike Vick. These same parks where Vick hasn't been playing serve hot dogs, and more pigs die every day under deplorable factory farm conditions than the amount of dogs Vick could kill in a lifetime of dog fighting.

"But... these were dogs!" So? Dogs are no better or more important than chickens and are actually dumber than pigs generally. Dogfighting is an exceptional instance animal cruelty but exceptional injustice is hardly more representative or awful than the quotidian kind.

Man, do "dog lovers" annoy me!

Anyway, give Mike Vick another shot. It's just mean self-righteousness to not do so. The fetishization of dogs in this country is beyond ridiculous. If Vick would have killed an equal amount of, say, squirrels, nobody would care.

mod edit: language


Sorry, gotta go ahead and disagree with you here. Dogs helped us evolve and helped us through the caveman years. Dogs have been allied with us for thousands of years, as have horses and cats. I know it seems hypocritical, but I honestly don't believe it has. Those three species of animals helped us through some tough times: dogs have allied with us on the hunt, horses gave us much more mobility, and cats were critical to the start of argiculture (kept vermin out of our grain stores). So personally, I don't feel it is hypocritical at all -- rather it is honoring those animals that helped us in so great of a way.

As it pertains to chicken, pork, beef, yea, industrial slaughterhouses are something of a necessary abomination in my opinion. But their existence doesn't smack of hypocrisy from where I sit. There aren't many "wild chickens" and in many respects the species' continued survival is predicated on us eating them. Wild Cows aren't a major problem, and they are rock stupid. Pigs, as much as I love pork/bacon etc., I am beginning to rethink that.

But even still we are talking about sustenance versus entertainment, thus, I don't find it hypocritical. You can argue about slaughtering methods (I'm not) but the reality is, every effort is to make sure it isn't prolonged etc. Dog fighting? Come on. with the types of dogs that we are talking about, its painful and prolonged. Then vick destroyed them in an inhumane way.

The fact of the matter is, he was the head of a criminal enterprise. Was he akin to the mafia or the crips? No, obviously not. but he still organized, hosted, bet on, bred etc. to further his dogfighting org. He doesn't "deserve" another chance. That is the biggest misnomer in this debate. (not that you specifically said it vandelay) He and every other convicted felon don't "deserve" another chance. Deserving something means you earned it. Frankly, he paid his debt to the legal system and by extension society. But the punishment is still the bare minimum. When you have messed up, there are two parts: punishment, and amends. He hasn't sniffed the amends part.

And again, maybe we fetish dogs (and cats to some degree) but at the same time, when evidence is there that they helped our caveman ancestors bring down game and keep us alive in an awful predicament (we have nothing other than smarts relative to the animal kingdom), I'm inclined to give those species a pass as it were, and certain protections.
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Re: Vick to begin workouts

Postby Metroid » Fri May 22, 2009 12:03 pm

Get over yourself Art, saying stuff like this...

Art Vandelay wrote:Man, do "dog lovers" annoy me!


Does nothing but rub people the wrong way and were put there for no other reason. You add stuff like that to your post and you just sound smug and pompous.
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Re: Vick to begin workouts

Postby Art Vandelay » Fri May 22, 2009 12:04 pm

eaglesrule wrote:As it pertains to chicken, pork, beef, yea, industrial slaughterhouses are something of a necessary abomination in my opinion. But their existence doesn't smack of hypocrisy from where I sit. There aren't many "wild chickens" and in many respects the species' continued survival is predicated on us eating them. Wild Cows aren't a major problem, and they are rock stupid. Pigs, as much as I love pork/bacon etc., I am beginning to rethink that.

Strictly speaking, there aren't many wild dogs either, so I'm not sure what the respective wildness of a given species has to do with this discussion. But you're right. There aren't many wild chickens or cows. If their continued survival is predicated on us eating them, that's only because we have made it that way.

eaglesrule wrote:But even still we are talking about sustenance versus entertainment, thus, I don't find it hypocritical. You can argue about slaughtering methods (I'm not) but the reality is, every effort is to make sure it isn't prolonged etc. Dog fighting? Come on. with the types of dogs that we are talking about, its painful and prolonged. Then vick destroyed them in an inhumane way.

I'm not talking about slaughering methods as much as I am about living conditions. I'm not that concerned with how factory farms kill their livestock, I'm more concerned with how they are treated while alive. And to be clear, I'm in now way defending dog fighting. Just pointing out that, when you look at the big picture and treatment of animals in general, it's certainly not the most egregious activity taking place, at least not when talking quantity.

eaglesrule wrote:And again, maybe we fetish dogs (and cats to some degree) but at the same time, when evidence is there that they helped our caveman ancestors bring down game and keep us alive in an awful predicament (we have nothing other than smarts relative to the animal kingdom), I'm inclined to give those species a pass as it were, and certain protections.

You know something else that helped the species survive during those formative years? Rape. But I'm still not going to put it on a pedestal.

I have no problem with Vick being punished for his actions. It's the extralegal punishment, wanting to basically end a man's life and livelihood after the legal system has already penalized him, that I take issue with. That's a bit much. It all has to do with how important people think dogs are to "our" culture. But dogs are NOT important to my culture. In my neighborhood growing up, I only knew one dude with a dog. He was a dope dealer named Lockhart. He and his brother Lafayette (these are their real names!) would have these humongous rottweilers and would beat them up and feed them steaks with gunpowder and stuff. They were dog owners, not dog lovers, and obviously the latter is much better in their case. But the point is, I think the US, for one, is far more heterogeneous with regard to dogs than most people who talk about Vick understand. People who attend dogfights don't do it because they are depraved — though they might be — it's just an accepted way of dealing in some cultures. Same as cockfighting, bullfighting, rodeos, etc. Not everybody feels all fuzzy about dogs and, in my case, I like dogs fine. I don't want them to be fought or mistreated. But I don't think the rare occasions of dogfighting are worse, morally speaking, than this:
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In fact. Clearly the above is much worse and more people are complicit.


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Re: Vick to begin workouts

Postby dream_017 » Fri May 22, 2009 12:07 pm

Art Vandelay wrote: Dogs are no better or more important than chickens and are actually dumber than pigs generally.

But pigs are dumb enough to taste soooooo gooooood :-L :-L
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Re: Vick to begin workouts

Postby Art Vandelay » Fri May 22, 2009 12:09 pm

Metroid wrote:Get over yourself Art, saying stuff like this...

Art Vandelay wrote:Man, do "dog lovers" annoy me!


Does nothing but rub people the wrong way and were put there for no other reason. You add stuff like that to your post and you just sound smug and pompous.

I added that to give cotext. So people would know where I'm coming from and be able to take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. Also, to relay the fact that "dog lovers" annoy me. And really, not to sound smug or pompous, but I'm really not at all concerned with sounding smug or pompous. Sorry if you were rubbed the wrong way, or if you consider yourself a dog lover, but I stand by the statement.
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Re: Vick to begin workouts

Postby eaglesrule » Fri May 22, 2009 12:35 pm

Art,

You still haven't addressed my greater point, is that some animal species ARE exalted and deservedly so, for the role they have fulfilled when mankind was in its infancy, and by many accounts, screwed. Dogs were there, and many scientists and sociologists agree, that when early man had dogs, it helped us develop to what we are today. Hunting, protecting us while we slept etc. the fact that YOU personally don't see their worth has nothing to do with it. Holistically, dogs have helped mankind in such ways that eating them or killing them for sport is a moral issue.

Now, Vick shouldn't be incarcerated forever, as dogs still aren't people. That being said, if you think about it, he ran a criminal enterprise. It's not like he went to a fight here and there and bet, he bred fighting dogs, had a shack to hold fights etc. He essentially helmed a criminal enterprising involving animals, that while not human, are very near and dear to humans -- with damn good reason. It's not the same as a chicken who has done nothing for us other than being dumb and being our food. Same with cows. Verdict is out with pigs, but one thing is for sure, they didn't actively help us ascend to our status now like dogs (and cats, horses) did.

So, really who cares what you think about dogs. The fact of the matter is that they helped us hunt, when we had crap weapons, shelter and eked out a basic living. I'd agree that man ultimately holds dominion over animals and the two aren't equivalent. That being said, there is a scale here and if one species holds an exalted status, it would be dogs (and no, I don't own one or never had one).
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