Vick to begin workouts

[Art Vandelay]

Art,

You still haven't addressed my greater point, is that some animal species ARE exalted and deservedly so, for the role they have fulfilled when mankind was in its infancy, and by many accounts, screwed. Dogs were there, and many scientists and sociologists agree, that when early man had dogs, it helped us develop to what we are today. Hunting, protecting us while we slept etc. the fact that YOU personally don't see their worth has nothing to do with it. Holistically, dogs have helped mankind in such ways that eating them or killing them for sport is a moral issue.

Now, Vick shouldn't be incarcerated forever, as dogs still aren't people. That being said, if you think about it, he ran a criminal enterprise. It's not like he went to a fight here and there and bet, he bred fighting dogs, had a shack to hold fights etc. He essentially helmed a criminal enterprising involving animals, that while not human, are very near and dear to humans -- with damn good reason. It's not the same as a chicken who has done nothing for us other than being dumb and being our food. Same with cows. Verdict is out with pigs, but one thing is for sure, they didn't actively help us ascend to our status now like dogs (and cats, horses) did.

So, really who cares what you think about dogs. The fact of the matter is that they helped us hunt, when we had crap weapons, shelter and eked out a basic living. I'd agree that man ultimately holds dominion over animals and the two aren't equivalent. That being said, there is a scale here and if one species holds an exalted status, it would be dogs (and no, I don't own one or never had one).

I guess I just disagree that that exaltation is still deserved. Dogs no longer play a key role to our survival. In fact, pigs, as a food source, are far more important to the survival of humans at this point than dogs are as a companion.

Also, sorry for typing "a-hole." I didn't realize that was one of the words that isn't allowed and would get you carded for using. Though, a quick search turns up about twenty pages of results with that in them, so maybe it's only not allowed when you're on the wrong side of a debate.

[Metroid]

Get over yourself Art, saying stuff like this...

Man, do "dog lovers" annoy me!

Does nothing but rub people the wrong way and were put there for no other reason. You add stuff like that to your post and you just sound smug and pompous.

I added that to give cotext. So people would know where I'm coming from and be able to take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. Also, to relay the fact that "dog lovers" annoy me. And really, not to sound smug or pompous, but I'm really not at all concerned with sounding smug or pompous. Sorry if you were rubbed the wrong way, or if you consider yourself a dog lover, but I stand by the statement.

That post didn't help. Nice try though.

Yes I'm a dog lover, I'm a dog owner and I love my dogs.

The difference between your example of pig slaughter houses and dogfighting is glaring, and eaglesrule already mentioned it, dogfighting is strictly done fore entertainment. It vile and disgusting. Just as bullfighting, cockfighting, and any other sort of forced animal fighting. You put two pigs in a ring and force them to rip each other apart and I'll say the same thing. Add that after an unsuccessful fight humans often "dispose" of their animals in in even more vile and disgusting ways and the difference is even more obvious.

Animals are mistreated everywhere and I'm against the mistreatment of animals everywhere. It's doesn't make me a hypocrite to condemn what Vick did without mentioning that slaughterhouses disgust me too. I'm also against the mass slaughter of dolphins in the waters off the coast of Japan, and the poachers that shoot and kill elephants for their ivory, I'm against puppy mills, and yes I'm against dogfighting as well.

You wanna have a conversation about how inhumane slaughterhouses are we can do that in another thread. But to say people are just being "vindictive and hypocritical" and that they "annoy" you because they are discussing what Mike Vick did and not the "big picture on treatment of animals in general" is just rude.

But what do I know, I'm just a vindictive, hypocritical, annoying dog-lover.

[Metroid]

Art,

You still haven't addressed my greater point, is that some animal species ARE exalted and deservedly so, for the role they have fulfilled when mankind was in its infancy, and by many accounts, screwed. Dogs were there, and many scientists and sociologists agree, that when early man had dogs, it helped us develop to what we are today. Hunting, protecting us while we slept etc. the fact that YOU personally don't see their worth has nothing to do with it. Holistically, dogs have helped mankind in such ways that eating them or killing them for sport is a moral issue.

Now, Vick shouldn't be incarcerated forever, as dogs still aren't people. That being said, if you think about it, he ran a criminal enterprise. It's not like he went to a fight here and there and bet, he bred fighting dogs, had a shack to hold fights etc. He essentially helmed a criminal enterprising involving animals, that while not human, are very near and dear to humans -- with damn good reason. It's not the same as a chicken who has done nothing for us other than being dumb and being our food. Same with cows. Verdict is out with pigs, but one thing is for sure, they didn't actively help us ascend to our status now like dogs (and cats, horses) did.

So, really who cares what you think about dogs. The fact of the matter is that they helped us hunt, when we had crap weapons, shelter and eked out a basic living. I'd agree that man ultimately holds dominion over animals and the two aren't equivalent. That being said, there is a scale here and if one species holds an exalted status, it would be dogs (and no, I don't own one or never had one).

I guess I just disagree that that exaltation is still deserved. Dogs no longer play a key role to our survival. In fact, pigs, as a food source, are far more important to the survival of humans at this point than dogs are as a companion.

Also, sorry for typing "a-hole." I didn't realize that was one of the words that isn't allowed and would get you carded for using. Though, a quick search turns up about twenty pages of results with that in them, so maybe it's only not allowed when you're on the wrong side of a debate.

You really want to do this in public? Seriously? You have been here a long time and should know that curse words are not allowed. I let the first one slide and edited it out, but then in your very next post you said it again. Your PM response to me following seemed very sincere and valid and was just getting ready to send you a PM thanking you for your understanding and saying I would remove the card. I'm still willing to.

As far as your search turning up other mentions of the word...please. What do you think we are? Machines? As much as we try, and we try hard, we cannot read every post. So unless it's flagged chances are we wont see it. You being carded has nothing to do with which side of the debate you are on. You used a bad word, twice, in a thread I was involved in....what did you think would happen?

[Art Vandelay]

Meh. I find it hypocritical for people who don't speak out against mistreatment of other animals, and who support (through purchase or complacency) products that are available in every football stadium in the country that rely on animal cruelty for their production, to then act as if Michael Vick is the worst thing to ever happen to animals. Clearly, very few people agree with me, but that's not going to keep me from expressing my thoughts on it. I don't deliniate between dogs and other animals. Dogs are no more important to me--in fact, considerably less so--that many other animals, so I don't understand why people get so worked up over mistreatment of dogs but not other animals (well, I understand it, I just think it's hypocritical). We're obviously not going to agree.

[Mookie4ever]

I can see both sides of this but the one difference that Art glosses over is that the brutality to dogs is gratuitous. The pigs, chickens and livestock are all food animals and are slaughtered to feed us. Their suffering could certainly be lessened but not ended. The suffering of the dogs though is completely unwarranted and deserving of criminal sanction. We are probably going overboard with Vick though.

[Kensat30]

Meh. I find it hypocritical for people who don't speak out against mistreatment of other animals, and who support (through purchase or complacency) products that are available in every football stadium in the country that rely on animal cruelty for their production, to then act as if Michael Vick is the worst thing to ever happen to animals. Clearly, very few people agree with me, but that's not going to keep me from expressing my thoughts on it. I don't deliniate between dogs and other animals. Dogs are no more important to me--in fact, considerably less so--that many other animals, so I don't understand why people get so worked up over mistreatment of dogs but not other animals (well, I understand it, I just think it's hypocritical). We're obviously not going to agree.

You eat a lot of tofu?

[Art Vandelay]

Meh. I find it hypocritical for people who don't speak out against mistreatment of other animals, and who support (through purchase or complacency) products that are available in every football stadium in the country that rely on animal cruelty for their production, to then act as if Michael Vick is the worst thing to ever happen to animals. Clearly, very few people agree with me, but that's not going to keep me from expressing my thoughts on it. I don't deliniate between dogs and other animals. Dogs are no more important to me--in fact, considerably less so--that many other animals, so I don't understand why people get so worked up over mistreatment of dogs but not other animals (well, I understand it, I just think it's hypocritical). We're obviously not going to agree.

You eat a lot of tofu?

Not as often as I eat meat. I think you've missed my point, however.

[Art Vandelay]

I can see both sides of this but the one difference that Art glosses over is that the brutality to dogs is gratuitous. The pigs, chickens and livestock are all food animals and are slaughtered to feed us. Their suffering could certainly be lessened but not ended. The suffering of the dogs though is completely unwarranted and deserving of criminal sanction. We are probably going overboard with Vick though.

That's a good point about the suffering, which is why I have no problem with the punishment that Vick has already gone through. I suspect, however, that even if he would have killed those dogs in a way that would not have caused them to suffer much, people would still be up in arms.

[mrblitz]

I can see both sides of this but the one difference that Art glosses over is that the brutality to dogs is gratuitous. The pigs, chickens and livestock are all food animals and are slaughtered to feed us. Their suffering could certainly be lessened but not ended. The suffering of the dogs though is completely unwarranted and deserving of criminal sanction. We are probably going overboard with Vick though.

That's a good point about the suffering, which is why I have no problem with the punishment that Vick has already gone through. I suspect, however, that even if he would have killed those dogs in a way that would not have caused them to suffer much, people would still be up in arms.

I'm guessing you never had a dog as a pet, Art?

[Kensat30]

Meh. I find it hypocritical for people who don't speak out against mistreatment of other animals, and who support (through purchase or complacency) products that are available in every football stadium in the country that rely on animal cruelty for their production, to then act as if Michael Vick is the worst thing to ever happen to animals. Clearly, very few people agree with me, but that's not going to keep me from expressing my thoughts on it. I don't deliniate between dogs and other animals. Dogs are no more important to me--in fact, considerably less so--that many other animals, so I don't understand why people get so worked up over mistreatment of dogs but not other animals (well, I understand it, I just think it's hypocritical). We're obviously not going to agree.

You eat a lot of tofu?

Not as often as I eat meat. I think you've missed my point, however.

So you've eaten dog meat then?