You're greatly underestimating how much control over the playcalling Manning has had...Tom Moore even said himself that he simply gave some "suggestions" on what he thought might be good plays and Manning would just do whatever he thought was best. Sounds to me like he'll be okay even with a semi-competent OC.
Manning isn't pissed because Moore left...he's just upset at the current state of "indecision" with regards to what's going on with who is taking on what responsibility...he'll be fine without Moore there. Harrison USED to be a security blanket for Manning...this season it was much moreso that the trio of Wayne, Gonzalez, and Clark were his security blankets in the passing game...Harrison had minimal impacts on every game this year...that offense will not be any worse without him.
The issue with Brady that drops him just a bit (only 1 spot from where you have it...) is his MAJOR injury that he's recovering from...you so kindly disregarded that completely in your reply. Of course he has good weapons...Manning does too though and coming back from a major knee injury is a big deal for QBs. There have just been way too many guys who have had an injury like that and have never been the same...I want to see him play at that ultra high level again before I rank him back up like he's automatically going to be that good.
mattb47 wrote:The issue with Brady that drops him just a bit (only 1 spot from where you have it...) is his MAJOR injury that he's recovering from...you so kindly disregarded that completely in your reply. Of course he has good weapons...Manning does too though and coming back from a major knee injury is a big deal for QBs. There have just been way too many guys who have had an injury like that and have never been the same...I want to see him play at that ultra high level again before I rank him back up like he's automatically going to be that good.
Another curt reply from you Matt. Not a surprise here.
I didn't feel the need to address the 'MAJOR' injury Brady had. It's kinda been over-reported in football circles the past 9 months. (Hey have you heard Brett Favre might be considering coming out of retirement?)
Brady's injury isn't a concern to the Pats, so it's not to me. Cassel wouldn't have been dealt if that weren't the case. For me, the overhaul in Colts coaches and Manning's apparent displeasure is a concern. Plus, Reggie Wayne gets the double-teams now, and it's up to the mostly-unproven Anthony Gonzalez to pick up the slack for Marvin Harrison.
And what if Wayne or Gonzalez goes down? Who out of Pierre Garcon, Roy Hall or Austin Collie make a capable #2 WR? I think these are plenty of concerns that outshine Brady's knee injury. The way Philip Rivers came back from identical surgery with less rehab time tells me that the key to rating Brady to Manning is not physical, it's about personnel. Brady has the better weapons at his disposal.
Obviously the Patriots with their stellar track record of revealing the truth with respect to injuries would be enough to make it easy to trust everything they might say about an injury. How often do you really hear that these great players aren't "recovering great" or whatever? They always say that and you're being naive if you just automatically take them at their word...especially a team as historically close lipped about the truth as the Patriots are.
Cassel was dealt because he was just an OK QB that they franchised and therefore had to get something in return for him so they didn't pay him far more than he was worth. I have no doubt Brady will be "back" in time for the season...that's not the question in the least as he had his injury at the beginning of the season last year and so he had ample recovery time to get back on the field...but far too often do players come back and they just never play at as high of a level as they did before their major injury for me to automatically think that he'll be playing at the level he was pre-injury.
Nice argument on that last one...if Randy Moss gets hurt then what? What about Wes Welker? Do you really think Joey Galloway is even a reasonable replacement for either of those guys? If either team has a major injury to one of their top 2 WRs it will significantly hurt...how in the world is that an argument either way? Weapons are just one part of what you have to look at...major injuries are not something that players just brush off both from a physical and mental standpoint.
mattb47 wrote:Obviously the Patriots with their stellar track record of revealing the truth with respect to injuries would be enough to make it easy to trust everything they might say about an injury. How often do you really hear that these great players aren't "recovering great" or whatever? They always say that and you're being naive if you just automatically take them at their word...especially a team as historically close lipped about the truth as the Patriots are.
Cassel was dealt because he was just an OK QB that they franchised and therefore had to get something in return for him so they didn't pay him far more than he was worth. I have no doubt Brady will be "back" in time for the season...that's not the question in the least as he had his injury at the beginning of the season last year and so he had ample recovery time to get back on the field...but far too often do players come back and they just never play at as high of a level as they did before their major injury for me to automatically think that he'll be playing at the level he was pre-injury.
Nice argument on that last one...if Randy Moss gets hurt then what? What about Wes Welker? Do you really think Joey Galloway is even a reasonable replacement for either of those guys? If either team has a major injury to one of their top 2 WRs it will significantly hurt...how in the world is that an argument either way? Weapons are just one part of what you have to look at...major injuries are not something that players just brush off both from a physical and mental standpoint.
Matt,
The Pats handed Cassel a boatload of money to franchise him when Brady's injury was a question mark. Cassel was insurance as that time. Basically the Pats have cashed that insurance policy in because they are confident Brady is OK. I'm sure Bill Belichick is not going to risk his team's hopes on a shot in the dark on Brady. Maybe Belichick's words cannot be taken at face value, but actions speak louder than words in this case. In fact, they speak volumes. Cassel's gone, Brady will be fine.
Also, you mention that players never come back and play at a high level after surgery of this type. I mentioned Philip Rivers in my last post, a guy who played with the ligiment injured in January and came back the following season and improved his stats! Brady has had 4 months longer than Rivers to recover. (But, of course, you so kindly disregarded that completely in your reply). Donovan McNabb came back strongly after a knee rehab as well. (Sure, Culpepper and Palmer have not, but you said it never happens).
And no, I don't think Joey Galloway is a replacement for Welker or Moss. But he's a better replacement than Pierre Garcon, Roy Hall or rookie Austin Collie. That's who the Colts will have to play (barring a trade) if Wayne or Gonzalez goes down. Galloway may be long in the tooth, but he still runs a sub 4.5 40-yd dash, and he has veteran savvy. None of the potential Colt #3 WR's can say that. Even ex-Eagle Greg Lewis might be a better replacement WR in the Pats' system than the young Colt wideouts. My argument comparing Brady to Manning is the team's depth. Galloway doesn't have to be an adequate replacement for Moss or Welker, he just has to be a better replacement than anyone the Colts have to plug in for Wayne or Gonzalez. (Also, I seem to remember Brady making guys like Deion Branch, David Patten and Jabbar Gaffney look good over the years, I think Galloway will fit in just fine if he is thrust into a starting role).
I've said my peace on this one, Matt. It's always a constant argument with you on every little point. You treat anyone on this board that has a different opinion than you like an enemy. Let's agree to disagree, and we can both be happy if our rivals in seasonal leagues this year take Manning or Brady ahead of us and leave the QB we like best in the #3 slot at QB for us.
At least we agree on Drew Brees as the top QB, thank God...
mattb47 wrote:Obviously the Patriots with their stellar track record of revealing the truth with respect to injuries would be enough to make it easy to trust everything they might say about an injury. How often do you really hear that these great players aren't "recovering great" or whatever? They always say that and you're being naive if you just automatically take them at their word...especially a team as historically close lipped about the truth as the Patriots are.
Cassel was dealt because he was just an OK QB that they franchised and therefore had to get something in return for him so they didn't pay him far more than he was worth. I have no doubt Brady will be "back" in time for the season...that's not the question in the least as he had his injury at the beginning of the season last year and so he had ample recovery time to get back on the field...but far too often do players come back and they just never play at as high of a level as they did before their major injury for me to automatically think that he'll be playing at the level he was pre-injury.
Nice argument on that last one...if Randy Moss gets hurt then what? What about Wes Welker? Do you really think Joey Galloway is even a reasonable replacement for either of those guys? If either team has a major injury to one of their top 2 WRs it will significantly hurt...how in the world is that an argument either way? Weapons are just one part of what you have to look at...major injuries are not something that players just brush off both from a physical and mental standpoint.
Matt,
The Pats handed Cassel a boatload of money to franchise him when Brady's injury was a question mark. Cassel was insurance as that time. Basically the Pats have cashed that insurance policy in because they are confident Brady is OK. I'm sure Bill Belichick is not going to risk his team's hopes on a shot in the dark on Brady. Maybe Belichick's words cannot be taken at face value, but actions speak louder than words in this case. In fact, they speak volumes. Cassel's gone, Brady will be fine.
Also, you mention that players never come back and play at a high level after surgery of this type. I mentioned Philip Rivers in my last post, a guy who played with the ligiment injured in January and came back the following season and improved his stats! Brady has had 4 months longer than Rivers to recover. (But, of course, you so kindly disregarded that completely in your reply). Donovan McNabb came back strongly after a knee rehab as well. (Sure, Culpepper and Palmer have not, but you said it never happens).
And no, I don't think Joey Galloway is a replacement for Welker or Moss. But he's a better replacement than Pierre Garcon, Roy Hall or rookie Austin Collie. That's who the Colts will have to play (barring a trade) if Wayne or Gonzalez goes down. Galloway may be long in the tooth, but he still runs a sub 4.5 40-yd dash, and he has veteran savvy. None of the potential Colt #3 WR's can say that. Even ex-Eagle Greg Lewis might be a better replacement WR in the Pats' system than the young Colt wideouts. My argument comparing Brady to Manning is the team's depth. Galloway doesn't have to be an adequate replacement for Moss or Welker, he just has to be a better replacement than anyone the Colts have to plug in for Wayne or Gonzalez. (Also, I seem to remember Brady making guys like Deion Branch, David Patten and Jabbar Gaffney look good over the years, I think Galloway will fit in just fine if he is thrust into a starting role).
I've said my peace on this one, Matt. It's always a constant argument with you on every little point. You treat anyone on this board that has a different opinion than you like an enemy. Let's agree to disagree, and we can both be happy if our rivals in seasonal leagues this year take Manning or Brady ahead of us and leave the QB we like best in the #3 slot at QB for us.
At least we agree on Drew Brees as the top QB, thank God...
You can dislike the way I debate things like this if you want...but if you use poorly thought out arguments to make points on something that is intended to assist someone else then I'm going to point it out and tell you what I think. I'd do it to ANYONE here because the point is to help the people asking for it and I feel it's a bit counterproductive to do so without solid reasoning behind it. Sorry if it bothers you but it's not going to change...I like to challenge people to think just a bit more and deeper about what they're saying. So if you start things off by acting like it's a ridiculous thing to view Manning as a better pick than Brady, then I'm going to let you know what I think. Quite simple really.
You can't say as a fact what the Patriots were thinking...it's just as viable to say what I'm saying about the situation and arguing it as if it were fact is ridiculous. You don't know what they were thinking there just as I don't...but watching Cassel and knowing that he really wasn't as good as most of the commentators and such seem to try to make him out to be, they knew that they could get something for him and so I think they franchised him so that they didn't lose him for nothing. They don't know more than anyone else how Brady will look when he gets out there for his first regular season game...it's IMPOSSIBLE to know before it happens when the season rolls around. It was never a question whether Brady would get back to start the season...that's why I don't think the "keep Cassel until we know Brady will be okay for the season" argument doesn't work in my mind. He injured it at the start of last season so of course he would physically be able to be on the field by the start of this year...my concerns, once again, are not in whether or not he'll back but at what level he'll be playing at.
When did I say that players never come back and play at a high level? You should probably read it again because I said that players often come back and are never the same again...not that it never happens that they come back at a high level. My whole point was that more often than not, players do not come back the same player they were pre-injury. It's also a bit different for a younger player like Rivers (just 26 when the injury happened) to recover from an injury like that than a player like Brady who is 31 and will turn 32 this year. It can be tough for younger or older players but the older you get, the harder it is to fully recover from a major injury. Nowhere did I say it's impossible or that it even won't happen...but it's not a given that he'll be "great" again following his injury and I'm quite simply not willing to put him as high as I would if he were completely healthy.
You missed my point with the argument about the targets...I'm not going to argue that who the Colts have behind their WRs are as good as Galloway or anything like that...but the bottom line is that if either team has one of their top targets go down (I'd argue that the Colts have just as many with Clark being MUCH better than anything the Pats have at TE, I'd rather have him than Galloway as well), their team will be hurting a good deal on offense. That's it. Also, there's no real guarantee that Galloway will do much this season...he has struggled with injuries lately and the guy is 37 years old and he'll be 38 in November, when the injuries start to come at that age they rarely go away. He only started 4 games last season and only caught 13 balls all season in 9 appearances and averaged just 10.6 yards per catch (down 7.2 yards from the past couple seasons). I wouldn't depend on him to be a reliable receiver this season.
All in all though, I never end up with a Brees or Manning or Brady because I'm not one to use a high pick on a QB like that. Last year I ended up picking Philip Rivers or Jay Cutler in nearly every draft I was apart of much later than these guys and that's what I normally end up trying to do.
mattb47 wrote:There have just been way too many guys who have had an injury like that and have never been the same...
Okay I took your 'never' out of context. Frankly in recent years I can only think of Culpepper at the QB position that has had a knee ligiment injury that crippled his Fantasy value. Palmer's stats have taken a dip, but it has more to do with the team around him crumbling than any physical after-effects.
I take offense with your comment that my argument is not well-thought out, mattb. It's not like I came out and said "Take Brady over Manning 'cause Brady rules and Manning sucks".
I think the points I have made about Colts' coaching and personnel changes, as well as the Garcon-Hall-Collie mixture as potential WR3 are very well-founded. I haven't claimed to be reading Bill Belichick's mind, I am just following the logic of his actions is dealing Cassel.
Actually, it's you, Matt, that have overextended yourself in the mind-reading department. You claim to know what precisely Manning is upset about, that it's the poor communication from upper management in the Colts and not the loss of Tom Moore and Howard Mudd as coaches that has Manning miffed. Just because Manning says that to the media doesn't mean that's precisely what he's thinking. What I do think, however, is that the friction between Manning and his bosses could be a distraction, and that the Colts are going through changes, whether Manning likes it or not. It also seems that you have been reading the minds of the Patriot front office in regards to Cassel. I guess you're not that high on the guy. But you seem to think the New England brass are in agreement with you and were just dealing him because he really isn't that good. Funny, it seems Josh McDaniels in Denver and Scott Pioli in KC don't share your sentiment -- those two ex-Patriot staffers were willing to pay a hefty price for Cassel. I think it's safe to say that everyone in New England was impressed with Cassel last year and believes in him. There just isn't room for him anymore with a healthy Tom Brady around. (At least not at 14 mil per season).
As I have stated previously, you nitpick at anybody that disagrees with your assessments as if you're the only person on the board that has a valid opinion. Whether someone takes the time or not to present a valid argument doesn't matter, you just keep coming back with little trivial objections.
So to paraphrase for those that don't want to go back and read the whole thread;
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by mattb47 » Sat May 30, 2009 3:34 pm 
