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Re: kensat30's Top 28 QB Rankings

Postby 2ksports » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:22 pm

Kareighuis wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Garrard to me is a game manager, on a bad passing offense, on a team that will probably pass less than average. Hard to get excited about that. I have him in my midrange QB2 options. He's a guy I don't mind rostering as a backup, but I'm not targeting the guy in any way, shape, or form.


I agree with this. He wont put up flashy numbers- almost like Garcia the last couple of years. The advantage is that he signed a extension just a year ago, so management needs to show faith in him at least one more year, considering the o-lines issues last year. Also, he has no competition- nothing like the Cle or TB QB spots.

Draft whatever QB you're targeting, then grab Garrard as bye-cover. Avoid forming a QB duo from Palmer/Schaub/Cutler/Hass/Roeth. A Hass/Garrard pair is much better pick value.

Kensat30 wrote:I don't think he has anything close to top5 QB upside, although there is a decent chance he ends up as a borderline QB1 option, possibly in the top10. I don't find the value in borderline guys like that unless you can get them in the very last round in the draft or somewhere close, certainly not the 10th round or wherever Garrard is going. Give me Hasselbeck instead.


Interesting comparison- Hass is coming off an injury-plagued season and, while he has Edge and Housh now, he doesn't have Walter Jones. Alot of people have talking of pairing Palmer with Hass- two high-upside QBs that have been name-brand QBs the last few years. Both have great potential, but can completely bust. I'd much rather pair one of them with Garrard- a safe, but low-output option, that can secure you should your QB1 fail.

2ks- who you talking about getting injured 2 years in a row?


Talking about Matt Schaub.
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Re: kensat30's Top 28 QB Rankings

Postby Kensat30 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:49 pm


1) Wilford plays for Miami, since 2008 season, not Jacksonville. He plays backup backup TE for the Phins.


2) Burleson is not criminally underrated. He actually flat out sucks balls, and has some of the worst hands on the team, and has sucked for some time now. I watch Seahawk games and this guy will never go over 1000 yards this year, I can gaurantee it. He's a below avg WR in the NFL and I mentioned the same thing 2 years ago when people thought he'd be good moving to Seattle. Of all the WRs names you threw out in your post, he is the least talented. See post from 2 years ago arguing with some guy who thought Burleson was all that: viewtopic.php?f=127&t=247196&p=1722123&hilit=nate+burleson+2ksports#p1722123 - I can't believe people still believe Burleson is a real #2.

3) Williamson seems to be catching fine right now. You seem to have EXTREME biases against certain WRs, like Anthony Gonazalez, or Steve Smith NYG not being physically talented, even though he's the fastest receiver on his team and all-american track star.

It's all knee-jerk reactions and guesses, and while you make some good points, other points have me baffled.


1)Wilford was in Jacksonville for several seasons starting a couple years back. He was recently cut by Miami and instantly resigned by Jacksonville.

2) Burleson did suck his first year in Seattle. He played slow, dropped passes, and looked like a complete bust. Things turned around for him though the very next year (2007), guy got on the field, starting making plays, and resembled the player that Seattle envisioned when the plucked him from Minnesota. That turn around season made me a believer, and he looked good in his one half of play last year as the WR1 before he got the ACL treatment. This year I view him as the rock solid WR2 to Housh's #1 and I think Hasselbeck has enough trust and Burleson has enough talent to make some waves.

3) Williamson sucks. I've watched the guy on tape, in person, in highlight videos, read stories, etc. etc. Everything I've seen, everything I've read, everything about the guy says BUST. They've blamed it on his vision, his concentration, his learning disability, etc. whatever. I don't care. You shouldn't care. The guy is not a football player. Trading Randy Moss to the Vikings only to take this guy at #7 overall as a speedy WR replacement was perhaps the worst NFL move a franchise has made this decade. Williamson represents the culmination of all that has gone wrong with the NFL Draft. The guy is a stop watch prospect that many on this board could and did tell you would never amount to anything in the NFL before he even stepped on the field. Amateurs who did REAL scouting versus the crap that some of the general mangers in the NFL have done were proven right by the career path Williamson has followed to this day.

I've watched Williamson burn coverage by TEN yards, literally ten yards with no one in camera view of the guy down the field and drop the football... TWICE in the same game. It's so bad watching this guy play it makes the opposing fans groan. That's freaking unheard of to hear fans of the home team groaning at a bad play from the visitor. Nine year old children playing street ball are better players than this guy minus the speed factor. IF you want to get all stoked about one preseason performance where he managed to hang onto a long bomb or two, be my guest. It's happened before. Last season this guy stepped up in the preseason as well, but mark my words if you draft the guy he will score more boos than he will touchdowns.

PS- Knee jerk reactions are opinions. I don't want to follow somebody elses advice that I don't agree with because then if I fail, I know that if I stayed true to myself things might have been different. At least this way if I crash and burn it will be on me. Steve Smith is a possession WR and will never been a star in the NFL. Anthony Gonzalez is on the same track IMO. That's my opinion, I'm sticking to it until I see something on the field that refutes it.
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Re: kensat30's Top 28 QB Rankings

Postby biju » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:13 pm

Not that I need to throw my hat into the Burleson ring here, but I have to agree with Kensat on this one. Most WRs don't do well their first year on a new team so to hold 2006 against him seems ill advised.

2007 was a solid year for him, but it was that first half in 2008 that makes me a strong believer in his abilities. It was extremely unfortunate that he was injured because it looked like he was about to really break out.

As for Kensat's other examples, I disagree with Anthony Gonzalez--I have him pegged for a 1000/6 type season in 2009 and possibly more depending on whether the Colts are in shootouts or not. His end of year schedule of DEN, JAC, NYJ looks pretty inviting to me as well.
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Re: kensat30's Top 28 QB Rankings

Postby joejlitz » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:30 pm

2ksports wrote:I don't buy the propensity for injury argument because he happened to get injured 2 years in a row. Statistically, that's not enough to label him as injury-prone. There's just nothing about his game that really lends him to be injured. He gets sacked just like Favre gets sacked.

He's got weak DNA. Nothing you can do about that. It's inherited.
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Re: kensat30's Top 28 QB Rankings

Postby joejlitz » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:37 pm

biju wrote:Not that I need to throw my hat into the Burleson ring here, but I have to agree with Kensat on this one. Most WRs don't do well their first year on a new team so to hold 2006 against him seems ill advised.

So that doesn't bode well for the Housh/Hasselbeck argument made by others, then either, huh? :-?
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Re: kensat30's Top 28 QB Rankings

Postby Kensat30 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:43 pm

biju wrote:Not that I need to throw my hat into the Burleson ring here, but I have to agree with Kensat on this one. Most WRs don't do well their first year on a new team so to hold 2006 against him seems ill advised.

2007 was a solid year for him, but it was that first half in 2008 that makes me a strong believer in his abilities. It was extremely unfortunate that he was injured because it looked like he was about to really break out.

As for Kensat's other examples, I disagree with Anthony Gonzalez--I have him pegged for a 1000/6 type season in 2009 and possibly more depending on whether the Colts are in shootouts or not. His end of year schedule of DEN, JAC, NYJ looks pretty inviting to me as well.


Why take a potential 1000/6 WR in the 5th round of your draft, when you can get Donald Driver in the 8th and Derrick Mason in the 11th? It doesn't make sense.
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Re: kensat30's Top 28 QB Rankings

Postby moochman » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:03 pm

Kensat30 wrote:
biju wrote:Not that I need to throw my hat into the Burleson ring here, but I have to agree with Kensat on this one. Most WRs don't do well their first year on a new team so to hold 2006 against him seems ill advised.

2007 was a solid year for him, but it was that first half in 2008 that makes me a strong believer in his abilities. It was extremely unfortunate that he was injured because it looked like he was about to really break out.

As for Kensat's other examples, I disagree with Anthony Gonzalez--I have him pegged for a 1000/6 type season in 2009 and possibly more depending on whether the Colts are in shootouts or not. His end of year schedule of DEN, JAC, NYJ looks pretty inviting to me as well.


Why take a potential 1000/6 WR in the 5th round of your draft, when you can get Donald Driver in the 8th and Derrick Mason in the 11th? It doesn't make sense.


Finally, Kenstat, you get past your intense burning hatred of Ant Gone :-b and hit on the one point that cannot be argued: He is being taken too high in the draft. It is as if people are only able to see his upside and adjust for his downside. He has to prove himself, and has a lot of competition for the ball. He is a good WR, just not as good a value.
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Re: kensat30's Top 28 QB Rankings

Postby Kensat30 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:35 pm

moochman wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:
biju wrote:Not that I need to throw my hat into the Burleson ring here, but I have to agree with Kensat on this one. Most WRs don't do well their first year on a new team so to hold 2006 against him seems ill advised.

2007 was a solid year for him, but it was that first half in 2008 that makes me a strong believer in his abilities. It was extremely unfortunate that he was injured because it looked like he was about to really break out.

As for Kensat's other examples, I disagree with Anthony Gonzalez--I have him pegged for a 1000/6 type season in 2009 and possibly more depending on whether the Colts are in shootouts or not. His end of year schedule of DEN, JAC, NYJ looks pretty inviting to me as well.


Why take a potential 1000/6 WR in the 5th round of your draft, when you can get Donald Driver in the 8th and Derrick Mason in the 11th? It doesn't make sense.


Finally, Kenstat, you get past your intense burning hatred of Ant Gone :-b and hit on the one point that cannot be argued: He is being taken too high in the draft. It is as if people are only able to see his upside and adjust for his downside. He has to prove himself, and has a lot of competition for the ball. He is a good WR, just not as good a value.


Ok here is the major misconception, I don't have hate for Gonzalez. I hate the guy for where he is going in redrafts right now. In time, I think he can absolutely be worth a 5th round draft pick in a Peyton Manning-led offense, but that's at least a year and potentially multiple years down the road. He may never reach the 2nd-3rd round status we've seen from Reggie Wayne, that's all I'm saying. The guy is an undeveloped player at this point and people are overpaying for unfinished goods. WR is a position that must be learned by evern the best talents in the game and average talents like Gonzalez often times take longer to develop if they do at all.

A good but not great Derrick Mason for example took a full five years before he became a fantasy worthy player.
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Re: kensat30's Top 28 QB Rankings

Postby biju » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:36 am

joejlitz wrote:
biju wrote:Not that I need to throw my hat into the Burleson ring here, but I have to agree with Kensat on this one. Most WRs don't do well their first year on a new team so to hold 2006 against him seems ill advised.

So that doesn't bode well for the Housh/Hasselbeck argument made by others, then either, huh? :-?


Yes. I don't think I've ever argued against that possibility and actually called it out as a possible bust scenario in my Seattle article. But one thing that does work in Housh's favor is experience in a similar system. Burleson was in a similar system, but the weak bastardized version they run out in freezeville sans a talented QB, plus he had less experience.

Reports say Housh and Hasselbeck have clicked well in training camp, but as I said before there's certainly a case where it doesn't translate this first year.
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Re: kensat30's Top 28 QB Rankings

Postby biju » Thu Aug 27, 2009 1:39 am

Kensat30 wrote:
biju wrote:Not that I need to throw my hat into the Burleson ring here, but I have to agree with Kensat on this one. Most WRs don't do well their first year on a new team so to hold 2006 against him seems ill advised.

2007 was a solid year for him, but it was that first half in 2008 that makes me a strong believer in his abilities. It was extremely unfortunate that he was injured because it looked like he was about to really break out.

As for Kensat's other examples, I disagree with Anthony Gonzalez--I have him pegged for a 1000/6 type season in 2009 and possibly more depending on whether the Colts are in shootouts or not. His end of year schedule of DEN, JAC, NYJ looks pretty inviting to me as well.


Why take a potential 1000/6 WR in the 5th round of your draft, when you can get Donald Driver in the 8th and Derrick Mason in the 11th? It doesn't make sense.


I'm sure I don't need to say this, but I never said he was a good value. I merely stated that I believe he's pointed out that I disagree with your assessment of his abilities and what my projection is for him.

And weren't you the one earlier in a different thread stating that you don't want to have a Donald Driver or Derrick Mason on your team and that you'd rather have potential?

:-?
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