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Re: Quick Hits

Postby joejlitz » Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:33 am

Dan Lambskin wrote:i'm getting real excited about Green Bay TE Jermichael Finley, but not enough so to draft him. i'm just not confident enough in him as a TE1 and i rarely would carry 2 TE, but he's a guy i'll be watching closely. he's a fairly big guy (6-5" 250lbs...although i dont know if that's all that big for a TE) and has some nice hands and if he overtakes Donald Lee i think he could end up somewhere between the #5-#10 TE

From Dave Richard on CBS Sportsline:
Rodgers showed excellent pocket awareness and did a lot of short-area targeting, which is standard in the Packers' offense. Better yet, he hasn't been sacked once this preseason and is making use of second-year tight end Jermichael Finley, who saw a lot of reps with the first-team offense and displayed some excellent explosiveness and athletic ability. It wouldn't surprise us if Rodgers requested that Finley play more since he's easily a better receiving threat than Donald Lee.

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Re: Quick Hits

Postby Kensat30 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:36 pm

Fade2White12 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:If Gonzalez is such a speed demon, why is the guy only posting 11 yards per catch when he played basically exclusively out of the slot?
Uhhh... because slot receivers generally don't amass a lot of yards per catch... Wes Welker, probably everyone's top slot-only receiver, had a 9.9 ypc in 2008. Plus, no one said he's a speed demon - you're the one who said he didn't have any speed.


Wes Welker has a 10 ypc because they routinely pass him the ball behind the line of scrimmage. Since when is Anthony Gonzalez getting his number called on bubble screens 2-3 times a game.

Potential? If you think he has no physical ability and no intangibles, how can you even say he has potential? According to you, he is slow, has bad hands, can't jump, and is afraid to go over the middle. You really couldn't be more wrong about your analysis. It may be that AGon ends up doing little more than last year, but it won't be because of anything you've said.


Never said he had bad hands or that he was afraid to go over the middle. When I refer to his potential, it's just that: potential. The guy has shown very little in NFL games up to this point. He hasn't gotten deep. He hasn't been a redzone presence. He hasn't broken a lot of big plays on his own. He gets what Peyton Manning gives him. I actually think he is a less talented version of Brandon Stokely to this point. He's bigger and stronger than Stokely, but also slower off the ball and not as good of a route runner. The one thing Gonzalez has over Stokely is health.

Who knows maybe Gonzalez changed his game this offseason and got quicker, stronger, and smarter. I saw him make one play this preseason that tells me that he could be decent, but even that was a timing pass on a fade route where Manning threw a perfect ball. If Manning gives Gonzalez ten of those during the season maybe you have a chance of proving me wrong, but personally I don't see it. I think Gonzalez is less talented than a guy like Reggie Wayne and Wayne took years before he developed enough to make his presence felt in Peyton's offense. I think that Gonzalez COULD be the same scenario, but I think ultimately the upside is lower there and perhaps much lower.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby StudentOfTheGame » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:44 pm

PuntinFool wrote:
StudentOfTheGame wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Anthony Gonzalez is the biggest whiff at the WR position this year. "Marvin Harrison is gone" and "Anthony Gonzlez is a thid year WR" are not valid reasons for why this guy will succeed.

The lack of a legit WR2 is the main cause of concern I have for Peyton Manning this season. Gonzalez is not an especially good route runner, he isn't the type of WR who will fight for the ball in traffic, and he is not very fast. The guy is what you can an "average" WR. Start picking "average" WRs in good situations in the early rounds of your draft and see what happens. I have a hard hard time seeing Anthony Gonzalez turning into a stud WR this year, but I don't have a hard time seeing the guy massively dissapointing based on his ADP.

Might as well start taking Kevin Walter and Michael Jenkins in the 5th round of your draft while you are at it. Corner the market on mediocre WR2s on good passing offenses. Dallas Clark has a 50/50 chance to outproduce the guy from the freaking TE position.


Um...No, sorry.

Weak, SOTG. Write a paragraph explaining yourself like everyone else.


Honestly I don't even know where to begin. He starts out by saying gonzalez is not a good route runner which is by far his greatest strength. He's very precise in and out of his cuts and his timing with manning seems to be on reggie wayne's level already. Then he goes on to say gonzalez doesnt fight or the ball in traffic. He's known for making tough catches over the middle and over defenders. I've seen him do it many times. Next "he's not very fast"? He ran a 4.4. He's a pretty darn good athlete. You dont get drafted in the first round without having some sort of athletic ability. If the Colts were concerned about Marvin leaving and Gonzalez being the number 2, I think they would have done something about it. The coaches seem to be very confident that he and Manning can develop a special connection and keep the offense rolling. Sorry if I didn't feel the need to explain why his argument was wrong . I thought it was obvious.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby StudentOfTheGame » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:47 pm

Kensat30 wrote:
Fade2White12 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:If Gonzalez is such a speed demon, why is the guy only posting 11 yards per catch when he played basically exclusively out of the slot?
Uhhh... because slot receivers generally don't amass a lot of yards per catch... Wes Welker, probably everyone's top slot-only receiver, had a 9.9 ypc in 2008. Plus, no one said he's a speed demon - you're the one who said he didn't have any speed.


Wes Welker has a 10 ypc because they routinely pass him the ball behind the line of scrimmage. Since when is Anthony Gonzalez getting his number called on bubble screens 2-3 times a game.

Potential? If you think he has no physical ability and no intangibles, how can you even say he has potential? According to you, he is slow, has bad hands, can't jump, and is afraid to go over the middle. You really couldn't be more wrong about your analysis. It may be that AGon ends up doing little more than last year, but it won't be because of anything you've said.


Never said he had bad hands or that he was afraid to go over the middle. When I refer to his potential, it's just that: potential. The guy has shown very little in NFL games up to this point. He hasn't gotten deep. He hasn't been a redzone presence. He hasn't broken a lot of big plays on his own. He gets what Peyton Manning gives him. I actually think he is a less talented version of Brandon Stokely to this point. He's bigger and stronger than Stokely, but also slower off the ball and not as good of a route runner. The one thing Gonzalez has over Stokely is health.

Who knows maybe Gonzalez changed his game this offseason and got quicker, stronger, and smarter. I saw him make one play this preseason that tells me that he could be decent, but even that was a timing pass on a fade route where Manning threw a perfect ball. If Manning gives Gonzalez ten of those during the season maybe you have a chance of proving me wrong, but personally I don't see it. I think Gonzalez is less talented than a guy like Reggie Wayne and Wayne took years before he developed enough to make his presence felt in Peyton's offense. I think that Gonzalez COULD be the same scenario, but I think ultimately the upside is lower there and perhaps much lower.


Didnt a healthy stokley post monster numbers behind wayne and harrison when he was with the colts? Personally I think Gonzalez is a much better athlete and a much more complete reciever, but even if youre saying that hes a younger stokley, you're saying he can be a very solid fantasy player.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby 2ksports » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:52 pm

StudentOfTheGame wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:
Fade2White12 wrote: Uhhh... because slot receivers generally don't amass a lot of yards per catch... Wes Welker, probably everyone's top slot-only receiver, had a 9.9 ypc in 2008. Plus, no one said he's a speed demon - you're the one who said he didn't have any speed.


Wes Welker has a 10 ypc because they routinely pass him the ball behind the line of scrimmage. Since when is Anthony Gonzalez getting his number called on bubble screens 2-3 times a game.

Potential? If you think he has no physical ability and no intangibles, how can you even say he has potential? According to you, he is slow, has bad hands, can't jump, and is afraid to go over the middle. You really couldn't be more wrong about your analysis. It may be that AGon ends up doing little more than last year, but it won't be because of anything you've said.


Never said he had bad hands or that he was afraid to go over the middle. When I refer to his potential, it's just that: potential. The guy has shown very little in NFL games up to this point. He hasn't gotten deep. He hasn't been a redzone presence. He hasn't broken a lot of big plays on his own. He gets what Peyton Manning gives him. I actually think he is a less talented version of Brandon Stokely to this point. He's bigger and stronger than Stokely, but also slower off the ball and not as good of a route runner. The one thing Gonzalez has over Stokely is health.

Who knows maybe Gonzalez changed his game this offseason and got quicker, stronger, and smarter. I saw him make one play this preseason that tells me that he could be decent, but even that was a timing pass on a fade route where Manning threw a perfect ball. If Manning gives Gonzalez ten of those during the season maybe you have a chance of proving me wrong, but personally I don't see it. I think Gonzalez is less talented than a guy like Reggie Wayne and Wayne took years before he developed enough to make his presence felt in Peyton's offense. I think that Gonzalez COULD be the same scenario, but I think ultimately the upside is lower there and perhaps much lower.


Didnt a healthy stokley post monster numbers behind wayne and harrison when he was with the colts? Personally I think Gonzalez is a much better athlete and a much more complete reciever, but even if youre saying that hes a younger stokley, you're saying he can be a very solid fantasy player.


Stokely got 1000/10 as a WR3. This means Gonzalez can do just as well. IMO, Gonzalez is physically more talented than Stokely, and as the WR2 in Indy, he could very likely end up with 1100/10.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby StudentOfTheGame » Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:54 pm

2ksports wrote:
StudentOfTheGame wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:
Wes Welker has a 10 ypc because they routinely pass him the ball behind the line of scrimmage. Since when is Anthony Gonzalez getting his number called on bubble screens 2-3 times a game.



Never said he had bad hands or that he was afraid to go over the middle. When I refer to his potential, it's just that: potential. The guy has shown very little in NFL games up to this point. He hasn't gotten deep. He hasn't been a redzone presence. He hasn't broken a lot of big plays on his own. He gets what Peyton Manning gives him. I actually think he is a less talented version of Brandon Stokely to this point. He's bigger and stronger than Stokely, but also slower off the ball and not as good of a route runner. The one thing Gonzalez has over Stokely is health.

Who knows maybe Gonzalez changed his game this offseason and got quicker, stronger, and smarter. I saw him make one play this preseason that tells me that he could be decent, but even that was a timing pass on a fade route where Manning threw a perfect ball. If Manning gives Gonzalez ten of those during the season maybe you have a chance of proving me wrong, but personally I don't see it. I think Gonzalez is less talented than a guy like Reggie Wayne and Wayne took years before he developed enough to make his presence felt in Peyton's offense. I think that Gonzalez COULD be the same scenario, but I think ultimately the upside is lower there and perhaps much lower.


Didnt a healthy stokley post monster numbers behind wayne and harrison when he was with the colts? Personally I think Gonzalez is a much better athlete and a much more complete reciever, but even if youre saying that hes a younger stokley, you're saying he can be a very solid fantasy player.


Stokely got 1000/10 as a WR3. This means Gonzalez can do just as well. IMO, Gonzalez is physically more talented than Stokely, and as the WR2 in Indy, he could very likely end up with 1100/10.



I agree. Look at the numbers Wayne has posted his whole career as a number 2 reciever and he's not an exceptional athlete. He's just solid and consistant. Much like Gonz.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby Fade2White12 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:35 pm

Kensat30 wrote:Wes Welker has a 10 ypc because they routinely pass him the ball behind the line of scrimmage. Since when is Anthony Gonzalez getting his number called on bubble screens 2-3 times a game.


So does every other slot receiver. You make it sound like 11YPC for a slot receiver is bad, when it would be up there with the league leaders of those who play exclusively in the slot. How about another top example, since you need more than one. TJ Housh has played in the slot for a considerable amount of his career, yet has split wide frequently in Cinci's different packages. You know what his career YPC is? 11.

Kensat30 wrote:Never said he had bad hands or that he was afraid to go over the middle.
No? Exhibit A. Not in so many words but:

Kensat30 wrote:he isn't the type of WR who will fight for the ball in traffic.....bumbles when he catches the ball


Kensat30 wrote:When I refer to his potential, it's just that: potential. The guy has shown very little in NFL games up to this point. He hasn't gotten deep. He hasn't been a redzone presence. He hasn't broken a lot of big plays on his own. He gets what Peyton Manning gives him. I actually think he is a less talented version of Brandon Stokely to this point. He's bigger and stronger than Stokely, but also slower off the ball and not as good of a route runner. The one thing Gonzalez has over Stokely is health.


I'm having a hard time understanding why you keep talking about going deep and breaking huge gains. He played as a slot receiver, yet you can't get past that. More statistics, you say? Ok.

Last two years
Wes Welker
YPC: 10.5
Receptions: 223
Catches of 20+ Yds: 23

Anthony Gonzalez
YPC: 13.2
Receptions: 94
Catches of 20+ Yds: 18

Welker has 129 MORE receptions over the last two years than Gonzalez, yet has only 5 more catches of 20+ yards. And to further illustrate, Houshmandzadeh:

YPC: 10
Receptions: 204
Catches of 20+ Yds: 19

Really Kensat, come on! If anything, he breaks MORE big gains.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby Kareighuis » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:35 pm

I'm not a Gonz fan, but I thought this is relevant- "Anthony Gonzalez's touchdown catch from Peyton Manning was the kind of play we'd see Marvin Harrison make. It was a back-corner fade where the receiver gets his feet down at the last possible second. Manning knows how to throw that ball, and Gonzalez proved he can make that catch. This is a very telling and positive sign about where Gonzalez is at in his development."
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby StudentOfTheGame » Wed Aug 26, 2009 2:39 pm

Kareighuis wrote:I'm not a Gonz fan, but I thought this is relevant- "Anthony Gonzalez's touchdown catch from Peyton Manning was the kind of play we'd see Marvin Harrison make. It was a back-corner fade where the receiver gets his feet down at the last possible second. Manning knows how to throw that ball, and Gonzalez proved he can make that catch. This is a very telling and positive sign about where Gonzalez is at in his development."


For anyone questioning his route running ability or his explosiveness, or even his effectiveness in the red zone....Please watch that play.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby Kensat30 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:05 pm

Fade2White12 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:Wes Welker has a 10 ypc because they routinely pass him the ball behind the line of scrimmage. Since when is Anthony Gonzalez getting his number called on bubble screens 2-3 times a game.


So does every other slot receiver. You make it sound like 11YPC for a slot receiver is bad, when it would be up there with the league leaders of those who play exclusively in the slot. How about another top example, since you need more than one. TJ Housh has played in the slot for a considerable amount of his career, yet has split wide frequently in Cinci's different packages. You know what his career YPC is? 11.


Houshmanzadeh didn't play the slot in Cincy, he was the "Z" WR, aka the flanker. Housh has been saying this entire offense now that he is in the Z role Seattle, they are actually letting him get down the field. It's a different flanker variation in a different scheme. Housh is still valued for his blocking (because he is on the strong side of the formation), but they are also giving him some 15 yard routes to run. He wasn't given deep routes at all in Cincinatti, those were Chad Johnson and Chris Henry territory. Chris Henry slot WR when he got on the field msot of the time there, why don't you look up his career YPC #s.
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