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Re: Quick Hits

Postby Fade2White12 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:52 pm

Kensat30 wrote:Houshmanzadeh didn't play the slot in Cincy, he was the "Z" WR, aka the flanker.


Housh played in both the slot (y) and as a flanker (z) depending on whether it was a 3 or 4 WR set. The last few years, the Bengals have ran few 4WR sets, and even 2 WR sets, meaning Housh generally lined up inside in the slot (why I said he played in the slot AND lined up outside). In Seattle, he'll do the exact same thing but reversed. The Hawks use more 4 receiver sets therefore he'll be a Z first, and a Y second. But regardless, you're trying to pick minor details of my argument that have nothing to do with AGon, just so you can move the argument away from your obviously poor arguments. But even so - let's assume Housh lined up outside the majority of the time - he should still have a higher YPC than a full time slot receiver.

Kensat30 wrote:He wasn't given deep routes at all in Cincinatti, those were Chad Johnson and Chris Henry territory. Chris Henry slot WR when he got on the field msot of the time there, why don't you look up his career YPC #s.


And we now come full circle. You say Housh wasn't given deep routes at all, therefore he should be given a pass. Yet, AGon wasn't given deep routes either, yet you despise him. You're just talking in circles.

Oh, and it wouldn't make sense to look up Henry's stats since the majority of the time he's played has been in limited roles, and generally on the outside in 3 receiver sets. You yourself just said he was given the deep routes over Housh - so why bring him up? I think I'm done debating you, though. Everything you've said about him has been completely wrong, yet you stand by your views in the face of actual statistics.
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AGON Sucks! (Kensat)/AGON is great! (everyone else)

Postby joejlitz » Wed Aug 26, 2009 5:44 pm

Changed the Subject. ;-D
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby Kensat30 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:32 pm

We've made out arguments, this thread will have to wait for the season to play out before there is any resolution.

Just one question for you guys. Out of this group of WRs, who stands out?

Terrell Owens
TJ Houshmanzadeh
Wes Welker
Chad Ocho Cinco
Eddie Royal
Roy Williams
Braylon Edwards
Anthony Gonzalez

These guys are all options in the draft sometime around the 4th and 5th rounds. Every single one of these guys except Anthony Gonzalez has shown something on an NFL football field to merit that pick. Am I crazy for thinking that this guy is overrated for where he is going in drafts? I think you guys are crazy. I've heard arguments in favor of Steve Smith in this thread as well, why then does that guy hold a 9th-10th+ ADP(which I am not touching) and not a 5th? Anybody with "talent" stepping into a bigtime role should see an insane ADP number regardless of what they have done on the football field right? Steve Smith may not be in a Peyton Manning offense, but Eli is no slouch either and then Smith has the chance to be not the #2 but the #1 in that offense. What is so different between these two players? Care to argue why Steve Smith(NYG) is a better player than I think he is and justify picking him in the 5th round of a draft?

In the end, I win this argument if Anthony Gonzalez isn't an elite WR because that is where you are taking him. The draft value says it all. Even if he turns out to be NOT a bust, if he's not a star he IS a bust anyways. Of course I think the guy is a good pick based on his offense and his relative talents in later rounds, but people are drafting this guy like he is alraedy a star. Might as well take Crabtree in the 7th round while you're at it I say. College football is not NFL football, pedigree means nothing until you show something on a NFL field. Tape I've watched shows Gonzalez slow off the line of scrimmage, getting jammed, tight in coverage down the field, etc. etc. That's a recipe for a 75 catch 900 yard 5 TD type season in a starting role even with Peyton Manning throwing the football.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby Kensat30 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:40 pm

Fade2White12 wrote:Everything you've said about him has been completely wrong, yet you stand by your views in the face of actual statistics.


The "actual statistics" say that this guy was no better than a washed up Marvin Harrison last year.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby joejlitz » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:49 pm

Kensat30 wrote:We've made out arguments, this thread will have to wait for the season to play out before there is any resolution.

Just one question for you guys. Out of this group of WRs, who stands out?

Terrell Owens
TJ Houshmanzadeh
Wes Welker
Chad Ocho Cinco
Eddie Royal
Roy Williams
Braylon Edwards
Anthony Gonzalez

These guys are all options in the draft sometime around the 4th and 5th rounds. Every single one of these guys except Anthony Gonzalez has shown something on an NFL football field to merit that pick. Am I crazy for thinking that this guy is overrated for where he is going in drafts? I think you guys are crazy. I've heard arguments in favor of Steve Smith in this thread as well, why then does that guy hold a 9th-10th+ ADP(which I am not touching) and not a 5th? Anybody with "talent" stepping into a bigtime role should see an insane ADP number regardless of what they have done on the football field right? Steve Smith may not be in a Peyton Manning offense, but Eli is no slouch either and then Smith has the chance to be not the #2 but the #1 in that offense. What is so different between these two players? Care to argue why Steve Smith(NYG) is a better player than I think he is and justify picking him in the 5th round of a draft?

In the end, I win this argument if Anthony Gonzalez isn't an elite WR because that is where you are taking him. The draft value says it all. Even if he turns out to be NOT a bust, if he's not a star he IS a bust anyways. Of course I think the guy is a good pick based on his offense and his relative talents in later rounds, but people are drafting this guy like he is alraedy a star. Might as well take Crabtree in the 7th round while you're at it I say. College football is not NFL football, pedigree means nothing until you show something on a NFL field. Tape I've watched shows Gonzalez slow off the line of scrimmage, getting jammed, tight in coverage down the field, etc. etc. That's a recipe for a 75 catch 900 yard 5 TD type season in a starting role even with Peyton Manning throwing the football.

Interesting how you start out resigned that everyone will all just have to agree to disagree and then go on to attempt to strengthen your case. :-?
Peyton Manning can be expected to throw 2 TDs and sometimes 3 TDs a game. You can't expect that from Eli Manning, who has many 1 TD games and Kensat, you are way too knowledgable to try to compare the two as easily.
I don't know who "you" is when you say that's where "you" are taking Gonzalez (when you refer to him being selected in the 4th and 5th rounds. I don't see him going that high. I have him ranked 22nd for WRs right after VJAX, Royal, and Edwards...and right before Evans, Bryant, and Moore.

Aside: Personally, I never said that Gonzo was going to blow up and I don't know that he will. I just thought I would mention two conditions that were favorable to him having a good season. But if you refer to the 1st page, I still said I don't think he will have a top-10 WR season.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby Fade2White12 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:04 pm

Kensat30 wrote:We've made out arguments, this thread will have to wait for the season to play out before there is any resolution.

Just one question for you guys. Out of this group of WRs, who stands out?

Terrell Owens
TJ Houshmanzadeh
Wes Welker
Chad Ocho Cinco
Eddie Royal
Roy Williams
Braylon Edwards
Anthony Gonzalez

These guys are all options in the draft sometime around the 4th and 5th rounds. Every single one of these guys except Anthony Gonzalez has shown something on an NFL football field to merit that pick. Am I crazy for thinking that this guy is overrated for where he is going in drafts? I think you guys are crazy. I've heard arguments in favor of Steve Smith in this thread as well, why then does that guy hold a 9th-10th+ ADP(which I am not touching) and not a 5th? Anybody with "talent" stepping into a bigtime role should see an insane ADP number regardless of what they have done on the football field right? Steve Smith may not be in a Peyton Manning offense, but Eli is no slouch either and then Smith has the chance to be not the #2 but the #1 in that offense. What is so different between these two players? Care to argue why Steve Smith(NYG) is a better player than I think he is and justify picking him in the 5th round of a draft?

In the end, I win this argument if Anthony Gonzalez isn't an elite WR because that is where you are taking him. The draft value says it all. Even if he turns out to be NOT a bust, if he's not a star he IS a bust anyways. Of course I think the guy is a good pick based on his offense and his relative talents in later rounds, but people are drafting this guy like he is alraedy a star. Might as well take Crabtree in the 7th round while you're at it I say. College football is not NFL football, pedigree means nothing until you show something on a NFL field. Tape I've watched shows Gonzalez slow off the line of scrimmage, getting jammed, tight in coverage down the field, etc. etc. That's a recipe for a 75 catch 900 yard 5 TD type season in a starting role even with Peyton Manning throwing the football.


My final point will be this: The 5 WRs drafted before AGon in Yahoo are - Hines Ward, Santana Moss, Santonio Holmes, Lee Evans and Eddie Royal. The ones drafted in ESPN: the same 5. The 5 after: Antonio Bryant, Kevin Walter, Jerricho Cotchery, Donald Driver, and Torry Holt. Why on earth are you comparing Gonzalez with players like Owens, Housh, Welker, etc.? Why not make a list like this:

Hines Ward
Lee Evans
Santonio Holmes
Santana Moss
Eddie Royal
Anthony Gonzalez
Antonio Bryant
Donald Driver
Kevin Walter
Jerricho Cotchery
Torry Holt

I think it's obvious why.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby Dan Lambskin » Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:32 am

i'm also not seeing where Gonzalez is being ranked that high, although i dont really play in any standard Yahoo or ESPN leagues

i go off my own rankings, and i have him in a tier below these guys

Vincent Jackson
Hines Ward
Santonio Holmes
Antonio Bryant
Lee Evans
Bernard Berrian
DeSean Jackson
Chad Ocho Cinco
Roy Williams
Braylon Edwards
Laveranues Coles
Donald Driver

and lumped in with these guys

Jerricho Cotchery
Santana Moss
Anthony Gonzalez
Lance Moore
Kevin Walter
Derrick Mason
Donnie Avery
Mark Clayton
Steve Breaston
Torry Holt
Ted Ginn
Michael Crabtree
Chris Chambers
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Re: AGON Sucks! (Kensat)/AGON is great! (everyone else)

Postby PuntinFool » Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:28 am

joejlitz wrote:Changed the Subject. ;-D

Hahahaha ... someone tell Jack Bauer that this thread has been mercilessly threadjacked! Bauer's just going to take out Gonzalez to get this thread back on track.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby 2ksports » Thu Aug 27, 2009 12:55 pm

Fade2White12 wrote:
Kensat30 wrote:We've made out arguments, this thread will have to wait for the season to play out before there is any resolution.

Just one question for you guys. Out of this group of WRs, who stands out?

Terrell Owens
TJ Houshmanzadeh
Wes Welker
Chad Ocho Cinco
Eddie Royal
Roy Williams
Braylon Edwards
Anthony Gonzalez

These guys are all options in the draft sometime around the 4th and 5th rounds. Every single one of these guys except Anthony Gonzalez has shown something on an NFL football field to merit that pick. Am I crazy for thinking that this guy is overrated for where he is going in drafts? I think you guys are crazy. I've heard arguments in favor of Steve Smith in this thread as well, why then does that guy hold a 9th-10th+ ADP(which I am not touching) and not a 5th? Anybody with "talent" stepping into a bigtime role should see an insane ADP number regardless of what they have done on the football field right? Steve Smith may not be in a Peyton Manning offense, but Eli is no slouch either and then Smith has the chance to be not the #2 but the #1 in that offense. What is so different between these two players? Care to argue why Steve Smith(NYG) is a better player than I think he is and justify picking him in the 5th round of a draft?

In the end, I win this argument if Anthony Gonzalez isn't an elite WR because that is where you are taking him. The draft value says it all. Even if he turns out to be NOT a bust, if he's not a star he IS a bust anyways. Of course I think the guy is a good pick based on his offense and his relative talents in later rounds, but people are drafting this guy like he is alraedy a star. Might as well take Crabtree in the 7th round while you're at it I say. College football is not NFL football, pedigree means nothing until you show something on a NFL field. Tape I've watched shows Gonzalez slow off the line of scrimmage, getting jammed, tight in coverage down the field, etc. etc. That's a recipe for a 75 catch 900 yard 5 TD type season in a starting role even with Peyton Manning throwing the football.


My final point will be this: The 5 WRs drafted before AGon in Yahoo are - Hines Ward, Santana Moss, Santonio Holmes, Lee Evans and Eddie Royal. The ones drafted in ESPN: the same 5. The 5 after: Antonio Bryant, Kevin Walter, Jerricho Cotchery, Donald Driver, and Torry Holt. Why on earth are you comparing Gonzalez with players like Owens, Housh, Welker, etc.? Why not make a list like this:

Hines Ward
Lee Evans
Santonio Holmes
Santana Moss
Eddie Royal
Anthony Gonzalez
Antonio Bryant
Donald Driver
Kevin Walter
Jerricho Cotchery
Torry Holt

I think it's obvious why.


I have no problem seeing Gonzo as one of the top 3 in that group.
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Re: Quick Hits

Postby u_fig_eater » Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:49 pm

http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/prof ... ct_id=1182

2007 NFL Draft Prospect Scouting Report:

Anthony Gonzalez, WR, Ohio State
Gonzalez is another guy who was overshadowed by college teammates(in his case QB Troy Smith and fellow WR Ted Ginn Jr.) at Ohio State and needed to showcase his talents in the off-season. Gonzalez did not astound at the NFL Combine, but he bounced back with a solid pro day at OSU to put his stock back on the rise. He was thought to be one of the fastest receivers outside of Ginn, but a 4.44 in the 40-yard dash still isn't too shabby. In addition to Gonzalez's solid on-field performances at pro day, Bengals receiver's coach Mike Sheppard said, "He was the best interview at the combine." Gonzalez is also as fundamentally sound as they come. He runs great routes, especially at intermediate distances, has sure hands, and is surprisingly effective at picking up extra yards after contact. Gonzalez progressed each year at Ohio State and should continue to do so at the next level. Such optimism looks like it could warrant a second round pick for Gonzalez.
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