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Slowest its been during a week 1

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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby FatFoot » Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:49 am

1). If you're asking for people to suggest "what the cafe COULD be" leave your feelings at the door. None of us users are going to be offended when/if you say "sorry... don't like your idea." In turn, your responsibility is to be thick skinned when people strenuously make their points. You poked fun at Mathias, in a light sort of way, but he was being serious. His response to your post was still serious, so now he's unfriendly?

This site's BEST FRIENDS are the people who populate it with helpful, well thought out posts, articles, etc. The people who fill the site with info. More important than your responsibility as a mod is all the good you did before you were a mod. That's what builds the reputation of a site.

2). Leftovers is the "junk?" I think this completely NAILS the problem here. Ask any of the folks who have been active here for a year or more, which forums are most important on this site. The answers will be: Leftovers and Injuryies/Player Updates. After being ACTIVE on this site for a year or so, you are typically so well informed about FF (not necessarily NFL) that you aren't seeking Draft, Waiver etc advice.

3). Start/Sit and Draft/Trade are NOT discussion forums. They aren't populated with threads that have great meaning for multiple people. They're populated with SINGLE USER THREADS that have a lifespan of MAYBE a few hours. Not days, weeks, months or years. That will keep being used, as long as it's open, but if Leftovers etc die off, the veterans have little reason to come here, and the advice on those 2 forums will clearly decline. It's fun chipping in on people's "please help" threads, but most of us come here to get insights and thoughts from friends, peers, etc on all the various crap in the "Junk" forums.

If you guys don't recognize this, it's at your peril.

How many FF forums are there on this site right now? How many were there last year? How many are active?

The worst things you can do (and I'm experienced in setting up forums and running 10K+ member forums, so I'm not just talking out my butt) are a). make your forum harder to use, b). use FAQs (always just let people complain that "the same subjects keep popping up" because it's ALWAYS more forum healthy than "hey noob, RTFnFAQ") c). misidentifying primary uses.

OF COURSE the Start/Sit and Draft/Trade forums are the most active! LURKERS post there, and people who aren't into FF discussions post there. But that doesn't keep people here, nor does it make the site interesting for anyone other than the poster asking questions.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby stomperrob » Sat Sep 12, 2009 12:33 pm

moochman wrote:
Madison wrote:Oh, and as to the "main-line forum of the #1 fantasy sport for this week" (too funny by the way :*) ), you do realize "Leftovers" is simply a catchall for the junk that doesn't have its own special forum, right? Pretty much dead last on the priority list of forums to keep an eye on for management. #1 is the Help Center, so it makes much more sense to post up there if you want to get management's attention.


You see, this is a part of the problem with the forums. You say the Leftovers is for the junk that didn’t fit under other headings, and I say the Leftovers are the meat and potatoes of the Café, it’s the very heart and soul. And we call it Leftovers. It has the second heaviest traffic load but is treated like an afterthought. This is where fantasy is discussed and ideas tossed about. It lives in the Leftovers. This should be no less than the second forum you see, and the title should suggest a camaraderie and exchange of ideas, conversation about the sport we love, instead of a for misfit threads.

The titles of the forums also leave something to be desired. That something, methinks, is clarity. We seem to strive for cool or clever at the expense of clarity. Not sure that is the better way to go. When I see Routine Plays, I don’t think of roster advice. Start/Sit or Draft advice doesn’t come to mind, and it should. I don’t think we have room for people to be guessing.

I have always felt that there are too many forums. Contraction is a dirty word in sports, but sadly needed. Grouping together like topics in fewer forums would place more information and/or infor-tainment inside each forum, and the easier it will be to find. Pimp my squad can go into the Routine Plays forum. IDP and Commish corner can be combined with a leagues forum, with a sub-forum containing the league draft rooms. The prediction forum needs revision badly. We all love to show how much we know, but I didn’t make as many predictions as I would have wanted to simply because of how disorganized it is. Sticky division prediction threads so people can come in at any time in the preseason and give it a shot. The NFL draft should probably go in the Toilet, er, sorry, I mean the Leftovers forum since it is an off-season discussion and there is plenty of room.

Bottom line is, if a topic is not readily available it isn’t going to get as much traffic as it deserves. We have a lot of great members here, both new and ancient, with so many wonderful and entertaining thoughts that they love to share. We need to make it easier to share our love of football/FFB.


Agreed!!! ;-D ;-D

Regarding all the forums, sometimes more is less! :-t
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby Carnac » Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:19 pm

I have to agree with Matthias.

1. Too many forums- Agree 100%
When I logged on a few weeks ago was shocked to see the reorganization. Spent a few seconds glancing around and then went over to the baseball cafe. I later came back and figured out the new subforums etc. If I were a new member I don't know that I would have come back. Might have seemed to daunting to figure out. The easier you make it to navigate the better your chances of keeping new members active.

2. Non-prominence of Leftovers- Agree 100%
I do most of my posting in Start/Sit trying to help managers who have questions. I do most of my reading in Leftovers. When I log on, I generally go straight to Leftovers and read any topics of interest (and sometimes give my 2 cents). My next stops are Injuries and Waiver/Trade forums then I go to Start/Sit to offer advice and sometimes post my own. But, I usually finish up with Leftovers again before I log out. Leftovers is the core of your site. I can go to any number of sites for start/sit advice (and do), but for in depth discussion of FF this is the site to be at. That usually takes place in Leftovers (just as baseball does). Leftovers does not belong at the bottom of the list of Forums (or sub forums). It should be the first thing you see. That will hook a new member into the Cafe faster than anything else we have to offer. Otherwise you are just another advice site.

3. Low prominence on google- that is for the tech guys. Which brings us to his next point.

4. Increasing bureacratization of the cafe- Agree 90%
Tech guys taking over the cafe? Taking a look at the forums page would make me think so. Also, a comment about Leftovers being simply "a catchall for the junk that doesn't have own forum" is telling me management has lost sight of the original draw of the cafe. This is one of VERY few sights where you can go to get in depth discussion from it's own members. If you do not know that Leftovers is the "meat and potatoes" of the cafe then the way has definitely been lost.

I love the cafe (baseball and football). But, it IS time to recognize what brings people here and keeps them coming back.

My 2 cents (not that anyone is listening)
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby stomperrob » Sat Sep 12, 2009 3:51 pm

Smugness and arrogance have sounded the death knell of many a once great website. When it was brought up in the other thread that many long time members and Mods were abandoning ship, the prevailing attitude seemed to be that as long we keep attracting new members, then why care about it or attempt to do anything to reverse it. Writing off or disenfranchising any portion of the membership doesn't seem a forward thinking way to build - addition by subtraction is not a wise course of action to follow! Sure it's easier to just write-off those who leave, but that doesn't make it wise or right.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby FatFoot » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:11 pm

How many non-contributing members who only post questions for help on their own teams, etc, would you trade to have some of the excellent posters, and extremely experienced team managers back? In terms of making people STAY on the site, I think it's easily better than 30:1
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby joejlitz » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:21 pm

FatFoot talking about the new format:
FatFoot wrote: From a usability standpoint, it makes the site harder to navigate via the drop down boxes... and iphone? Forget about it.

This Iphone comment was original enough and important enough that I thought I would highlight it, again. I don't use the iphone (or the isuck as I like to tease my buddy who has it), but brand new users probably would go somewhere else if they tried to access it for the first time from their iphone (and what you say is true).
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby flotsamnjetsam » Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:55 pm

stomperrob wrote:Smugness and arrogance have sounded the death knell of many a once great website. When it was brought up in the other thread that many long time members and Mods were abandoning ship, the prevailing attitude seemed to be that as long we keep attracting new members, then why care about it or attempt to do anything to reverse it. Writing off or disenfranchising any portion of the membership doesn't seem a forward thinking way to build - addition by subtraction is not a wise course of action to follow! Sure it's easier to just write-off those who leave, but that doesn't make it wise or right.



They wrote off the Cafe, not the other way around. Almost all the old members & mods that "left" are welcome to post here any time they want. They choose not to anymore, and maybe that is a problem. But that problem can possibly be fixed with the help from great posts like Carnac's.

Carnac wrote:I have to agree with Matthias.

1. Too many forums- Agree 100%
When I logged on a few weeks ago was shocked to see the reorganization. Spent a few seconds glancing around and then went over to the baseball cafe. I later came back and figured out the new subforums etc. If I were a new member I don't know that I would have come back. Might have seemed to daunting to figure out. The easier you make it to navigate the better your chances of keeping new members active.

2. Non-prominence of Leftovers- Agree 100%
I do most of my posting in Start/Sit trying to help managers who have questions. I do most of my reading in Leftovers. When I log on, I generally go straight to Leftovers and read any topics of interest (and sometimes give my 2 cents). My next stops are Injuries and Waiver/Trade forums then I go to Start/Sit to offer advice and sometimes post my own. But, I usually finish up with Leftovers again before I log out. Leftovers is the core of your site. I can go to any number of sites for start/sit advice (and do), but for in depth discussion of FF this is the site to be at. That usually takes place in Leftovers (just as baseball does). Leftovers does not belong at the bottom of the list of Forums (or sub forums). It should be the first thing you see. That will hook a new member into the Cafe faster than anything else we have to offer. Otherwise you are just another advice site.

3. Low prominence on google- that is for the tech guys. Which brings us to his next point.

4. Increasing bureacratization of the cafe- Agree 90%
Tech guys taking over the cafe? Taking a look at the forums page would make me think so. Also, a comment about Leftovers being simply "a catchall for the junk that doesn't have own forum" is telling me management has lost sight of the original draw of the cafe. This is one of VERY few sights where you can go to get in depth discussion from it's own members. If you do not know that Leftovers is the "meat and potatoes" of the cafe then the way has definitely been lost.

I love the cafe (baseball and football). But, it IS time to recognize what brings people here and keeps them coming back.

My 2 cents (not that anyone is listening)


Great post. Pretty funny how the same opinions can come across so differently. We are listening and the admins/Mods/FM's are doing their best to make the Cafe the best forum it can be. It won't happen overnight, but changes will definitely be made. Keep the constructive criticism coming! ;-D
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby joejlitz » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:15 pm

buffalobillsrul2002 wrote:1) Cafe doesn't offer fantasy football. It's way easier to just go to Yahoo or ESPN to get all your info, and then do all your league stuff right away.

This is a very valid point. I imagine if people sign up here to play here, they will come back year after year and use the forums on an annual basis as well.
buffalobillsrul2002 wrote:
2) As far as Leftovers is concerned, every year we rehash a lot of the same arguments. The only thing that really changes are the player names. It gets kind of boring to read a thread that contains a debate that was essentially rehashed last year...

Not much to be done here. NooBs come in and rehash things that vets have already discussed ad naseum. Unless you've got an idea how to fix this...
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I was a newb here, I'm not sure I'd really love this place all that much. It's a place that requires 2 things to really enjoy it [at least this forum]: 1) a decent understanding of fantasy football (or at least the want to beome pretty good at it), and 2) the want to actually think about things and decide on issues from the many opinions given. I'd think your "casual viewers" just want the answer to a really simple question. When that answer becomes 5 people arguing one thing with a complicated set of stats, and a set of different reasons, and 3 people arguing the other with a complicated set of their own stats, and other in-depth reasons, then it becomes really really difficult to make a decision. The thing is, this is actually what makes the Cafe so great. But at the same time, it doesn't really appeal to the "casual fan", and that's part of why we have a hard time bringing people in and keeping them.

I think the Weekly Start Sit column every year gives people the 1 answer that they are looking for. What other knd of format are you referring to? How else should this be done?
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby stomperrob » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:34 pm

flotsamnjetsam wrote:
stomperrob wrote:Smugness and arrogance have sounded the death knell of many a once great website. When it was brought up in the other thread that many long time members and Mods were abandoning ship, the prevailing attitude seemed to be that as long we keep attracting new members, then why care about it or attempt to do anything to reverse it. Writing off or disenfranchising any portion of the membership doesn't seem a forward thinking way to build - addition by subtraction is not a wise course of action to follow! Sure it's easier to just write-off those who leave, but that doesn't make it wise or right.



They wrote off the Cafe, not the other way around. Almost all the old members & mods that "left" are welcome to post here any time they want. They choose not to anymore, and maybe that is a problem. But that problem can possibly be fixed with the help from great posts like Carnac's.



But the point is, why are people writing the Cafe off and what pro-active steps is the Cafe taking to stem that flow in the future??? I just see this laissez faire approach that as long as we keep attracting new members, who cares what happens to the old ones! We need to maintain & sustain the balance of old & new members!
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby stomperrob » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:42 pm

joejlitz wrote:
buffalobillsrul2002 wrote:1) Cafe doesn't offer fantasy football. It's way easier to just go to Yahoo or ESPN to get all your info, and then do all your league stuff right away.


This is a very valid point. I imagine if people sign up here to play here, they will come back year after year and use the forums on an annual basis as well.



Not necessarily - I've more than doubled the number of Cafe leagues I was in last year, but my posting in the forums is 10% of what it was at this juncture of the season last year.
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