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Slowest its been during a week 1

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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby joejlitz » Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:59 pm

stomperrob wrote:
joejlitz wrote:
buffalobillsrul2002 wrote:1) Cafe doesn't offer fantasy football. It's way easier to just go to Yahoo or ESPN to get all your info, and then do all your league stuff right away.


This is a very valid point. I imagine if people sign up here to play here, they will come back year after year and use the forums on an annual basis as well.



Not necessarily - I've more than doubled the number of Cafe leagues I was in last year, but my posting in the forums is 10% of what it was at this juncture of the season last year.

I was referring to (and I think he was, too - which is why I highlighted it) the fact that we don't offer FF here. Sure we can set up leagues, but we play on ESPN.com and CBS Sportsline and Yahoo and a million other places. What if we offered FF right here?
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby LS2throwed » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:08 pm

stomperrob wrote:
But the point is, why are people writing the Cafe off and what pro-active steps is the Cafe taking to stem that flow in the future??? I just see this laissez faire approach that as long as we keep attracting new members, who cares what happens to the old ones! We need to maintain & sustain the balance of old & new members!



Maybe it's because I don't know the situation, but is it known that all those old members don't post here anymore because they have a Grudge and are purely "writing the cafe off", or did they just get busy with life? If I'm not mistaken alot of websites I've posted on has sustained a high level of certain members for a time but nobody post on a website forever. Some people post on these things for years while they are in school then when you get married and have kids it changes for some. Or some people just start posting on different sites for variety.


I just haven't been on many sites that kept all the same members for that long. I've posted on lots of different sport sites, fantasy sites, keystyle forums etc etc, and all of them have had members come and go. I really don't know what our ratio is here, how often we gain and lose members, but I think something like that is tough to stop to an extent.


I also agree with the Leftovers sentiment, I didn't start posting on this site regularly for a year years as far as utilizing the whole site, but for those few years Leftovers WAS the Cafe for me...As long as we seperate the start/sit and injuries updates, honestly alot of that stuff probably could be combined alot better, but Leftovers always was and always will be the best part about this site for me because I love the insight from most of the guys here whether I agree or not.


I post at a few fantasy sites, and the Cafe is still head and shoulders above those, I haven't been around to them all but honestly the most that I check do not compete with the Cafe and it's a pretty wide margin. So I really don't think this site is behind the masses so to speak, upgrades can always be made but were definately not low on the totem pole of fantasy football websites.


I was referring to (and I think he was, too - which is why I highlighted it) the fact that we don't offer FF here. Sure we can set up leagues, but we play on ESPN.com and CBS Sportsline and Yahoo and a million other places. What if we offered FF right here?



Yea but I don't know many fantasy football forum websites that have their own FF setup...espn, CBS, and Yahoo are completely different then what the Cafe is, their not considered a fantasy forum, and that's what the Cafe is.


I think the fact that we have our own draft rooms, and sub links to each draft forum puts us ahead of probably 90% or more of fantasy forums. FantasySharks a site that I visit sometimes, they have draft rooms but their ALL under a dynasty section so your entire league only has one post, and you don't have your own room it's a community room so you have to scroll down to find your league. That's as close as I've find, every single other website that I visit and like to post on don't have anything resembling a draft room. The set up we have here with the draft rooms keeps people coming back to the Cafe even if it is a league on Flea or Yahoo or whatever.


Also, I'd love to see us compared to some other fantasy websites/forums out there and see how we compare, from new users, to post per day/month, to the features that they have. It doesn't hurt to see how we truly stack up against some other websites. But the Leftovers has got to become more then just an after-thought.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby FatFoot » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:27 pm

There's also some competitive advantage to NOT having your league be hosted on a site with tons of great insights from hundreds of active posters. :) I don't love the idea that my league mates have an easy way of getting all the good nuggets! :) Seriously though... it is an interesting thought. I would have assumed that it would be prohibitively expensive to host FF.

The Leftovers thing... last thing I'll say about it... "Leftovers" is a name that makes one think it WOULD be junk. But really, that is where ALL of the Fantasy Football DISCUSSION on this site takes place. So maybe it's just a semantic thing, why we have different values for that forum. But it really is "the best." IMO.

IPod thing - The browsers are good, but the more links on a page, the better your chances of accidentally following a link while trying to scroll, etc. That's not your problem. When you use a drop down menu, you get a bigger window with all of the options. There are like 100 of them. How many are actually used? How many people would cry if the team-specific forums were shut down? Not suggesting that this is a solution or even a suggestion... just making a point. For anyone who uses their iPhone for a lot of web browsing (and this is very common) this is not an easy site to introduce oneself to.

I still think that it's just a separate problem caused by spreading things so much. The bigger problem is the idea that there are now more forums that are more watered down, instead of fewer with more meat and substance.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby flotsamnjetsam » Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:39 pm

stomperrob wrote:
flotsamnjetsam wrote:
stomperrob wrote:Smugness and arrogance have sounded the death knell of many a once great website. When it was brought up in the other thread that many long time members and Mods were abandoning ship, the prevailing attitude seemed to be that as long we keep attracting new members, then why care about it or attempt to do anything to reverse it. Writing off or disenfranchising any portion of the membership doesn't seem a forward thinking way to build - addition by subtraction is not a wise course of action to follow! Sure it's easier to just write-off those who leave, but that doesn't make it wise or right.



They wrote off the Cafe, not the other way around. Almost all the old members & mods that "left" are welcome to post here any time they want. They choose not to anymore, and maybe that is a problem. But that problem can possibly be fixed with the help from great posts like Carnac's.



But the point is, why are people writing the Cafe off and what pro-active steps is the Cafe taking to stem that flow in the future??? I just see this laissez faire approach that as long as we keep attracting new members, who cares what happens to the old ones! We need to maintain & sustain the balance of old & new members!



I understand and I already agreed with your point. If there is a reason why we are losing older members it should be addressed (if possible). But you are 100% wrong when you say you "I see this laissez faire approach that as long as we keep attracting new members, who cares what happens to the old ones!". It might seem that way to you, but it's not the case. That's the point I was trying to make. We can't force people to stay and we're not going to beg people to stay. The Cafe has been like this for ages. People come & go. Not all of the members are old farts like us. Most are a lot younger. Most younger members go to college, get jobs, start families, etc....and FF goes by the wayside. Some members have started their own FF website. Congrats to them & more power to them. This "problem" isn't something simple that can be fixed in a day....if there even is a problem.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby stikmata » Sat Sep 12, 2009 7:48 pm

flotsamnjetsam wrote:
stikmata wrote:Let's face it... this place is the kiddie pool of fantasy websites/forums.

Okay for beginners but the guppies eventually graduate to deeper waters to swim with the big fish.

;-D



Everyone is entitled to their own opinion...even if it's wrong. ;-D



You clearly have a lot of time invested into this forum. I hope there's enough ad revenue to compensate you.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby flotsamnjetsam » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:31 pm

stikmata wrote:
flotsamnjetsam wrote:
stikmata wrote:Let's face it... this place is the kiddie pool of fantasy websites/forums.

Okay for beginners but the guppies eventually graduate to deeper waters to swim with the big fish.

;-D



Everyone is entitled to their own opinion...even if it's wrong. ;-D



You clearly have a lot of time invested into this forum. I hope there's enough ad revenue to compensate you.



I wish there was also! The Mods are all volunteers. ;-D
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby moochman » Sat Sep 12, 2009 8:49 pm

FatFoot wrote:1). If you're asking for people to suggest "what the cafe COULD be" leave your feelings at the door. None of us users are going to be offended when/if you say "sorry... don't like your idea." In turn, your responsibility is to be thick skinned when people strenuously make their points. You poked fun at Mathias, in a light sort of way, but he was being serious. His response to your post was still serious, so now he's unfriendly?

This site's BEST FRIENDS are the people who populate it with helpful, well thought out posts, articles, etc. The people who fill the site with info. More important than your responsibility as a mod is all the good you did before you were a mod. That's what builds the reputation of a site.

2). Leftovers is the "junk?" I think this completely NAILS the problem here. Ask any of the folks who have been active here for a year or more, which forums are most important on this site. The answers will be: Leftovers and Injuryies/Player Updates. After being ACTIVE on this site for a year or so, you are typically so well informed about FF (not necessarily NFL) that you aren't seeking Draft, Waiver etc advice.

3). Start/Sit and Draft/Trade are NOT discussion forums. They aren't populated with threads that have great meaning for multiple people. They're populated with SINGLE USER THREADS that have a lifespan of MAYBE a few hours. Not days, weeks, months or years. That will keep being used, as long as it's open, but if Leftovers etc die off, the veterans have little reason to come here, and the advice on those 2 forums will clearly decline. It's fun chipping in on people's "please help" threads, but most of us come here to get insights and thoughts from friends, peers, etc on all the various crap in the "Junk" forums.

If you guys don't recognize this, it's at your peril.

How many FF forums are there on this site right now? How many were there last year? How many are active?

The worst things you can do (and I'm experienced in setting up forums and running 10K+ member forums, so I'm not just talking out my butt) are a). make your forum harder to use, b). use FAQs (always just let people complain that "the same subjects keep popping up" because it's ALWAYS more forum healthy than "hey noob, RTFnFAQ") c). misidentifying primary uses.

OF COURSE the Start/Sit and Draft/Trade forums are the most active! LURKERS post there, and people who aren't into FF discussions post there. But that doesn't keep people here, nor does it make the site interesting for anyone other than the poster asking questions.



A couple of points I'd like to follow up on. I am also bothered by a Mod response to a poster. The who's and whys aren't important. I think that the Mods need to filter their responses a little better. If you think that Matthias was being unfriendly, keep that to yourself. Address the points he is making and move along. Assume that members are smarter than most Bears fans (sorry FatFoot, season starts tomorrow ya know :-b ) We can figure out if someone is being unfriendly, mean spirited, kidding, or just a Mooch. While it is your place to mention and even censor members and thread content, I don't think is should be your place to label someone as unfriendly. Send a pm if you fell someone is crossing the line, but you shouldn't get into public name calling. I think that a member like me may be well within my rights to call someone a jerk, but a Mod should only stick to telling that poster why he is being a jerk. You guys need to set the better example.

As to the Lurkers, hey that is how I fell into the Cafe. They are as valuable as the vets, becuase that is where many future vets are brewed. I love the Start/Sit forum (wish I had more time to lurk and throw out advice) and wish there was a way to get the Sunday moring Chatroom fuller. So don't discount those who are seasonal viewers. For that reason I think the Start/Sit, Roster/Draft advice should be the most prominent forum. Right up front. Second though should be the Leftovers, with a snappy new name I would hope. We need to make some changes, not just becuase the traffic is down. It sounds as if there are many of us who are not as pleased as we should be with the Cafe experience. And if you can't sell those who love you, who is left over?
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby flotsamnjetsam » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:25 pm

moochman wrote:
FatFoot wrote:1). If you're asking for people to suggest "what the cafe COULD be" leave your feelings at the door. None of us users are going to be offended when/if you say "sorry... don't like your idea." In turn, your responsibility is to be thick skinned when people strenuously make their points. You poked fun at Mathias, in a light sort of way, but he was being serious. His response to your post was still serious, so now he's unfriendly?

This site's BEST FRIENDS are the people who populate it with helpful, well thought out posts, articles, etc. The people who fill the site with info. More important than your responsibility as a mod is all the good you did before you were a mod. That's what builds the reputation of a site.

2). Leftovers is the "junk?" I think this completely NAILS the problem here. Ask any of the folks who have been active here for a year or more, which forums are most important on this site. The answers will be: Leftovers and Injuryies/Player Updates. After being ACTIVE on this site for a year or so, you are typically so well informed about FF (not necessarily NFL) that you aren't seeking Draft, Waiver etc advice.

3). Start/Sit and Draft/Trade are NOT discussion forums. They aren't populated with threads that have great meaning for multiple people. They're populated with SINGLE USER THREADS that have a lifespan of MAYBE a few hours. Not days, weeks, months or years. That will keep being used, as long as it's open, but if Leftovers etc die off, the veterans have little reason to come here, and the advice on those 2 forums will clearly decline. It's fun chipping in on people's "please help" threads, but most of us come here to get insights and thoughts from friends, peers, etc on all the various crap in the "Junk" forums.

If you guys don't recognize this, it's at your peril.

How many FF forums are there on this site right now? How many were there last year? How many are active?

The worst things you can do (and I'm experienced in setting up forums and running 10K+ member forums, so I'm not just talking out my butt) are a). make your forum harder to use, b). use FAQs (always just let people complain that "the same subjects keep popping up" because it's ALWAYS more forum healthy than "hey noob, RTFnFAQ") c). misidentifying primary uses.

OF COURSE the Start/Sit and Draft/Trade forums are the most active! LURKERS post there, and people who aren't into FF discussions post there. But that doesn't keep people here, nor does it make the site interesting for anyone other than the poster asking questions.



A couple of points I'd like to follow up on. I am also bothered by a Mod response to a poster. The who's and whys aren't important. I think that the Mods need to filter their responses a little better. If you think that Matthias was being unfriendly, keep that to yourself. Address the points he is making and move along. Assume that members are smarter than most Bears fans (sorry FatFoot, season starts tomorrow ya know :-b ) We can figure out if someone is being unfriendly, mean spirited, kidding, or just a Mooch. While it is your place to mention and even censor members and thread content, I don't think is should be your place to label someone as unfriendly. Send a pm if you fell someone is crossing the line, but you shouldn't get into public name calling. I think that a member like me may be well within my rights to call someone a jerk, but a Mod should only stick to telling that poster why he is being a jerk. You guys need to set the better example.

As to the Lurkers, hey that is how I fell into the Cafe. They are as valuable as the vets, becuase that is where many future vets are brewed. I love the Start/Sit forum (wish I had more time to lurk and throw out advice) and wish there was a way to get the Sunday moring Chatroom fuller. So don't discount those who are seasonal viewers. For that reason I think the Start/Sit, Roster/Draft advice should be the most prominent forum. Right up front. Second though should be the Leftovers, with a snappy new name I would hope. We need to make some changes, not just becuase the traffic is down. It sounds as if there are many of us who are not as pleased as we should be with the Cafe experience. And if you can't sell those who love you, who is left over?



Hey mooch, please see the PM I sent. ;-D

I talked to Matthias via PM, but I'd like to publicly apologize to you for my post. My post was even more "unfriendly" (insert foot in mouth), and uncalled for. :-/
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby bungle613 » Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:39 pm

Well, debated if I would chime in on this or not but the kid went to sleep pretty well and I have some time so...

by Matthias on Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:54 pm

No offense, but that's ridiculous.

Both because:
(1) it ensures that no-one who actually uses the site will ever read the thread again; and
(2) if the people who are in the places to change things don't bother to check out the main-line forum of the #1 fantasy sport for this week, they have some serious problems which goes a ways to explain the usability issues.

This is an example in motion of why the Cafe is dying.


1) 3 more pages have sprung up as well as 3 mods and a former admin who still loves the cafe have found and posted to this "lost" thread. There is only 1 admin and several field managers who's jobs are not to monitor the forums, that is for the mods so if you want to offer constructive criticism, Leftovers is not the place for it, this is. Very valid points have been raised of what you and others feel should be done to help the cafe... this is where those posts need to be if you truly want to help the cafe.

2) Too many forums. I agree to a point. For those of us that have been around for a few years you can correct me if I am wrong but I think there are only a handful of "new" forums. IT is just a reorganization and the new layout seems to have expanded the main page. Personally I have put forth the motion to consolidate many of the forums and to merge some as well and am hopeful that it happens. Again, constructive criticism will always be addressed, just writing something new off as crap and criticizing it won't get anything resolved. Feel free to put forth any "plans" on what you feel should be done and post them here. Only a couple of poster in this thread actually posted how they wanted to see things vs how they didn't want to see things.

3) Leftovers... the hot topic... Now, I am going to play devils advocate. I have been playing FF for 15 years... still dig it but I am refining things and essentially in a year or two will only be playing in dynasty or best ball leagues I would imagine. FF is a growth from the office pool to a Yahoo public to a private , to keepers to dynasties to IDP and salary caps etc...

Leftovers and the debate about strategies, in depth football discussions etc... are what make the site and Leftovers brilliant for die hard FF fans, but for new blood, I would have to guess 90% of their posts go to the help section. New FF players have to graduate to the level of being interested in a lengthy discussion of PPR vs non PPR. I also blame the 613 BRett Favre topics in Leftovers over the last 3 years for any possible decline. ;-) While LEftovers is very important to all veteran cafe members it is something that will be found by a few who get FF fever and start playing beyond Yahoo publics. For those who are just the casual FF player, Start and Sit and DTKW are the bread and butter of this site and really are what bring new member into the cafe.

4) Prominence on Google and other searches. I am sure you all have noticed the bots floating about for the last 4-6 weeks. If anyone else knows of a way to move up the rankings I am certain we would all love to know.

5) Bureaucracy... It happens but really, from my 6 years here, it happens very little. I had no icons for the first several years as I went about and did what I enjoyed. Didn't bother or intimidate me one bit to talk or debate with someone like Flots (crazy icon hoarder) because I really don't think many people pay attention to most of them. A good portion of the icons are for fun anyways... make a guy laugh, win a game etc... get an icon. Help out in some forums, get an icon, spend 20 minutes transferring your rankings to a google sheet, get an icon, even something as simple as joining a mock draft gets you an icon. Icons can be easily achieved if that is what you feel holds value.

Some of what I feel are the more important icons like the jester or the expert are achieved from what other member think of you, not admin or mods. Same goes for the friendliness bar... has nothing to do with the cafe, it has to do with how others members feel they are being treated. Talk down to someone, insult them, whatever... you may get a knock from them. I may be wrong as I can't recall 100% but I don't think you can see other members bar, only your own. Again, might be wrong on that.

by stikmata on Sat Sep 12, 2009 9:50 am

Let's face it... this place is the kiddie pool of fantasy websites/forums.

Okay for beginners but the guppies eventually graduate to deeper waters to swim with the big fish.


6) I hope this was in jest because I just simply disagree. There is no other site with more intelligent, articulate, knowledgeable FF players than we have at the cafe. Big fish should be coming to us to get the fine tuning we can offer. :-D

7) Veterans leaving... it happens. There are countless reasons why people have left. Some good, some bad and you can read everything into that, life, love, prison, misunderstandings, Brett Favre. I would like to assure everyone that any issues are listened to. That goes for a 5 year veteran cafe member to a guy who's been here for a month. Sometimes issues can be resolved, sometimes they can't but they are listened to. Any member who has an issue feel free to PM me. As for personal reasons of leaving, well they are just that, personal.

8) Competition... agree 100% on this point. Everyone is taking FF more and more seriously it seems. Yahoo, ESPN, Flea/AOL etc... all are stepping up there game and I also agree there will come a point that the cafe will need to decide whether they want to take that route or not. I hope they do at some point and I hope I am around for it. Would be very cool to be in on the ground floor of starting up a site that could host leagues. I can absolutely see the potential that in a few years that those sites that offer actual playability will have the same type of layout and insight that the cafe currently offers.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby bungle613 » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:53 am

Well, that was interesting. This thread got lost for a bit. Temporary fix is to move it back to Leftovers (I know, weird) until a FM can figure out why it can't be moved into one of the sub cats. So, sorry for the delay, have at it again.
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