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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby Madison » Sun Sep 13, 2009 3:56 am

Matthias wrote:Then management needs to get its head on straight.

Leftovers does not represent the catchall for junk; Leftovers IS the Cafe. I'll say that again in case you missed it: Leftovers IS the Cafe. The other stuff: sit/start, rate my team, IDP, college football, "Cafe Issues", and whatever other garbage you guys have loaded into the current design is the waste. Leftovers is where the most interesting and most perceptive conversations pertaining to the sport of the forum take place. If Leftovers is your bottom priority then your priority set is upside down. You are Coca-Cola focusing on New Coke. You are the 1995 Bulls saying that Steve Kerr is your #1 guy. In short: you don't get it.


Actually the entire thing is quite the opposite. I'll take a stab and say around 90% of the discussions held in Leftovers would be completely appropriate and fitting in other forums. "Advanced fantasy football strategy" would be about the only thing off the top of my head that doesn't have a specific forum for it. Feel free to give me some examples of what else there might be that doesn't have a forum for it.

Actually, my question to you got me to thinking, so I decided to show exactly what I mean at the bottom of this post.

Matthias wrote:Also, I was dead serious that the football Cafe is the #1 fantasy sport for this week.


I don't disagree with football being the most popular fantasy sport and I don't disagree that the first week is important. My comment was about you thinking Leftovers was the "main-line forum", because it isn't. You could put a couch and television in your garage and call it a den or party room, but it is still a garage.

Matthias wrote:if you don't realize that this is the one weekend that you (or whoever management is nowadays)


Menyak is the owner and only Admin, there are a handful of Field Managers on specific various things (writing, graphics, etc), and the mods. I have no vested interest in the site other than I've spent many years here, I still think the Cafes are the greatest sites out there, and I get tired of hearing people complain only to complain. Constructive criticism is great and taken into consideration (and even implemented quite often), but griping just to gripe is easily discarded. Especially when it comes from those with a long track record of doing just that.

(*Disclaimer - Not naming any names. Just pointing out that if someone doesn't contribute in a positive manner, is always combative, drives members away due to their behavior, and complains just to complain, it is very easy to just discard anything someone like that says.)

Matthias wrote:Somehow I doubt I hurt Madison's feelings


Correct, you didn't. But remember the knife cuts both ways now. It was really in the Cafe's best interest for me to be polite as much as possible in the past. But nowadays, me being polite is a courtesy that isn't guaranteed. My behavior could drop down to an equal level at the snap of a finger.



Just as an example of the value of the Leftovers forum debate, here's a current snapshot of Leftovers:

PLAYERS you DON'T want to have or wish you avoided! - Draft/keeper forum. Could call it Venting, but it's really a draft/keeper subject.
Cafe's Sunday Preview - Trying to drum up interest in a new article series. Could go in Pencil and Paper or the Article Discussions.
Shock's Week 1 Booms and Busts - Predictions
The MADDEN CURSE lives on! - Player update on Troy.
How often do you go with your gut? - Common strategy question. Could go in Beginners.
Slowest its been during a week 1 - Help Center
Jermichael Finley - Sleeper
Yahoo Browser Scripts - Good one. No clue, so we'll leave it.
Early Season Buy-Lows/Sell-Highs - Trade
ODD ROSTER QUESTION. DROPPING PLAYERS MID GAME? - Beginners or Frequently Asked Fantasy Questions
VICK WR/RB Eligible? - Frequently Asked Fantasy Questions
OK, so how much does the new Yahoo StatTracker suck? - Venting
Players You "Must Have" This Season (2009 Edition) - Draft/Trade/Keeper
Weirdest Draft Picks You've Seen This Year - Draft.
Pre-Week 1 waiver wire sensation - Sleeper
Merriman arrested, accused of choking Tila Tequila - Player Updates
The Steelers more a passing team now? - Team Forum
So when does Rashard Mendenhall show his potential? - Player Discussion or could be the Draft Forum.
What happens when LT retires? - Team Forum
Favre's masterplan revealed! - take your pick seeing as how it was supposed to be a joke, General Talk would fit.
All Man-Crush Team - Cheering
McFadden named starter (link) - Player Update
Fantasy Football Pet Peeves - Venting
Domenik Hixon - thoughts? - Player discussion
PPR the Way to Go...And Win - Type of league discussion, let's leave this one.
TE vs 3-4 Defenses - At its core, it's a Draft question, but we'll call it strategy and leave it.
chris johnson vs kevein smith $80 round of golf - Player comparison
Year of the WR? - Draft question
Saints hiding that Pierre Thomas had knee surgery??? - Player Update/Team Forum, take your pick.
Where's the Start/Sit? Game tomorrow. (NT) - Article Discussion
Cinci Receivers...Coles and Henry - Player comparison
Willis McGahee: undervalued! - Sleeper or Draft Forums
Felix Jones, didn't notice till now, interesting - Sleeper
Is it possible to draft TOO GOOD? - Draft
Quinn is going to start - Player Update
Elimination Week 1 - Lines & Spreads
Tech in football...whatcha think? - Good one, we'll leave that one.
New Cafe Column: D-Day - Trying to drum up interest in a new article series. Could go in Pencil and Paper or the Article Discussions.
Accurate depth charts - Frequently Asked Fantasy Questions

So that's 39 threads (I didn't list or count the ones that had already been moved). Out of 39, there's what, 4 threads left? If the hammer were to be brought down hard on where posts go (and I'm not suggesting it should be, just proving a point), then Leftovers would certainly not be considered a main forum. So yes, when I say Leftovers is exactly what the term "leftovers" means, I still stand by that because it is true. 4 threads is not a main forum or a big deal at all.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby Dan Lambskin » Sun Sep 13, 2009 8:13 am

Madison...the way you think the Cafe should work and the way it works just dont match up. if everything was really that fractured this forum would die. i dont want to go check 35 forums each day to find out what's going on.

anything you said that should go in the draft forum that isnt a "SHOULD I PICK UP PLAYER X WHIR" type question would never be seen...i know you'll pull out the old "if it was worth discussing it would make it's way to the top" but sometimes threads in that forum are on page 3 in a matter of hours, and sorry, i'm not going to wade through 5 pages of DTKW posts to see if there's one or two discussion articles amid all the WHIR threads

same with specific players...unless he's hurt or i want to know if i should start him, all other discussion should be in one place...i dont want to check the team forum, the sleeper forum, the predictions forum, etc to find out what's going on, i'd rather look in one place instead of trying to guess where the discussion might be

also i posted some suggestions here on Friday but i figured it's worth being reposted where its actually being discussed

Dan Lambskin wrote:first off i'd like to say i like the new layout of the subforums in vertical order instead or horizontal. any chance of getting the Last Post Date next to each one though?

also, Leftovers dicussion prompted me to post some suggestions about reorginazation

1. i think the Sleepers and Predictions forums could be done away with and put into Leftovers...i think there would be more disussion there....and move Leftovers to the Top. i actually would like to see Articles posted here too like they started doing on the Darkside
i'd even say move the Beginners and FAQ's forums in as stickies...i'm not sure how often they get used anyway and i'd probably be more likely to answer Noob questions all in one threads

2. put the 20XX NFL Draft in a forum with College Football

3. move IDP in with Routine Plays

4. Move the Commish Forum into the Routine Plays forum

ideally i'd like to see the following layout

FOOTBALL LEFTOVERS (new name)
Beginners Forum and FAQ's as stickies

INJURIES AND PLAYER UPDATES

ROUTINE PLAYS (maybe rename it FANTASY ADVICE :-? )
*Roster Ratings
*Draft, Trade, Keeper, Waivers
*Who To Start/Bench
*Commissioner's Corner
*IDP

CAFE LIVE
* Game Commentary
* Live Chat

COLLEGE FOOTBALL
*20XX NCAA SEASON
*20XX NFL DRAFT (or even allow this in leftovers during the offseason)

CLASSIFIEDS

also maybe the Cafe Games could be condensed the way the Fan Forums were?

also i think Video Games fits better in Tailgate Party

...and if there's anything i can do to help let me know


EDIT: one other comment...i've seen some people say thay as a noob they dont know where to go, etc...would it be possible to send a PM to all new users with some sort of noob primer? (i.e. if you're looking for advice...go here, and it helps to leave a link and answer other questions)
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby bigh0rt » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:00 am

It's a rare occurrance that this happens, but I agree almost completely with Matthias. And I only feel I can even comment, because the list of gripes is nearly identical for the Dark Side, where I generally patrol. But, the answers and priorities being listed by Madison in this thread are identical to what has been being said for years now, and I believe are simply off the mark. Could every thread in Leftovers probably be re-classified into a different forum as it stands? Maybe. Is that a good thing? That's the question we're looking at here. Because what you've got is a breadth of veterans and non-veterans alike here saying they believe that is a bad thing, yet what keeps being returned is that they're wrong, essentially, for feeling that way. Whether or not you believe that Leftovers on either side of the Cafe here is the meat and potatoes, main line, etc. of the entire Cafe; it is. I'd wager it's the first forum that the vast majority of users visit upon logging in here (it is for me, and several others I've talked to). I would presume that management would embrace that and adapt it to their audience instead of repeatedly trying to stifle it and force in the other direction. It is all but a fact that there are entirely too many forums and sub-forums on the various Cafes, and that nobody would miss probably half of them if they were eliminated completely, and that on top of that, Leftovers or any other forum wouldn't be majorly tainted or ruined by doing so. There is a lot of constructive criticism going on here, not complaining, so it's not really fair to call it that at all -- people are providing suggestions, and pretty civilly stating what they like, dislike, and would like to see. In six pages now, I've nodded my head 'yes' a lot of times reading posts from Mat, Dan, and other guys I'm less familiar with. As has been said by others, and I'd just like to re-iterate, I think the mark is being missed here, and priorities misplaced. Maybe what Leftovers needs is a name change to reflect the prominence that it really already is and should continue to be (and more so) at the various Cafes. I know what it was intended to be -- but it's clearly not that; it's so much more.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby moochman » Sun Sep 13, 2009 9:49 am

Dan Lambskin wrote:Madison...the way you think the Cafe should work and the way it works just dont match up. if everything was really that fractured this forum would die. i dont want to go check 35 forums each day to find out what's going on.


EDIT: one other comment...i've seen some people say thay as a noob they dont know where to go, etc...would it be possible to send a PM to all new users with some sort of noob primer? (i.e. if you're looking for advice...go here, and it helps to leave a link and answer other questions)[/quote]

To build on that, we have read from several different members about how they don't post as much and one of the reasons is that the time we can devote can be limited. There are more times than not that I step into the Cafe for some Leftovers, meaning full well to got to injuries, start/sit/ team fan forums but never get there. I think if the forums are condensed some things I don't see would be seen. Visibility is everything, and if person only has time to visit a limited number of forums, maybe we should make sure there are so many to choose from and that they have more information inside.

I wonder if it would be a good idea, should an effort be made to contact Noobs, if we should also offer them a list of members who would be willing and available to help answer questions?
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby Matthias » Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:40 am

Madison wrote:Actually the entire thing is quite the opposite. I'll take a stab and say around 90% of the discussions held in Leftovers would be completely appropriate and fitting in other forums. "Advanced fantasy football strategy" would be about the only thing off the top of my head that doesn't have a specific forum for it. Feel free to give me some examples of what else there might be that doesn't have a forum for it.

The point is not whether or not you can find a new label for the discussions; the point is whether or not that is a good thing. I see the sub-forums only useful insofar as they keep the "Leftovers" (wasn't it originally named Cafe Smorgasboard?) forum free to discuss things in-depth. As in, I wouldn't want Kensat's excellent discussion of top WRs or top RBs for the year to get pushed to page 11 because 4,000 people were wondering if they should start Eli Manning today.

In short, the sub-forums serve to make "Leftovers" better; "Leftovers" does not, or at least should not exist just because someone there was not a perfect sub-forum for it.
Madison wrote:I don't disagree with football being the most popular fantasy sport and I don't disagree that the first week is important. My comment was about you thinking Leftovers was the "main-line forum", because it isn't. You could put a couch and television in your garage and call it a den or party room, but it is still a garage.

If you refuse to believe me, then read the opinion of every Cafe Vet who has posted in this thread. Leftovers is why people come back to the Cafe. I worked on the MS Antitrust case a decade ago and there was a Bill Gates e-mail along the lines of, "Why are we doing this and damaging Windows which is what we get paid $$ for?" That's exactly how I feel about your view above. Yes, if you like, you can absolutely destroy Leftovers and really leave it as vulture pickings. But if that's what your entire user base likes, why would you?

And if I build a house that has a den and a TV in my garage, but all of my friends like to go hang out in the garage to watch football, I can either go to my den and watch football alone or I can accept that the garage is the place to be; it's the main spot that people like to watch football in my house.
Madison wrote:Menyak is the owner and only Admin, there are a handful of Field Managers on specific various things (writing, graphics, etc), and the mods. I have no vested interest in the site other than I've spent many years here

If you're not management, then don't speak for management. Simple as that.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby 34=Sweetness » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:00 am

stikmata wrote:
flotsamnjetsam wrote:
stikmata wrote:Let's face it... this place is the kiddie pool of fantasy websites/forums.

Okay for beginners but the guppies eventually graduate to deeper waters to swim with the big fish.

;-D



Everyone is entitled to their own opinion...even if it's wrong. ;-D



You clearly have a lot of time invested into this forum. I hope there's enough ad revenue to compensate you.

I think it was more that your post didn't add anything but a snide remark. You didn't even give an example of which website would be "the big fish".

What, footballguys? I'd say plenty of guys here probably have a subscription there.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby Calyxes » Sun Sep 13, 2009 11:47 am

I have been a user of this site for a long time. I don't post here anymore because of a number of reasons.

1. To many forums. I agree with the the guy who mentioned the iphone. I have one and use it often while watching the games so I don't have to go into the other room to use my computer.

2. The leftover forum seems dead. That is the forum I look at the most often. Probably the reason I joined the site.

3. The mods seem to be a little to arrogant for me. I understand keeping things clean, but to edit a post of mine because I said a graph look like a "giant tit" seems stupid to me. Floatsjam showed his arrogance again in this thread. The new mods seem to take the older members who help build this site for granted.

Like I told a mod, I will not be posting here until things change. I am content with just posting in the greatest league forum on this site "king of the jungle." I don't mind just reading what I find as interesting topics and not adding my two cents.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby Munboy » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:53 pm

Madison... That's what makes me believe that the forums should be condensed. I don't know about you guys, but I don't like searching forum upon forum trying to find topics I'm interested in. When I get on here, I go to Leftovers, Steelers (if theres a new post), GT, and game commentary when there's games going on. I really don't have the time or patience to click through 80+ forums looking for topics I might want to chime in on. Having all those threads you said was in leftovers means that a person can go to ONE forum and see all those topics and pick and choose which ones he wants to read and/or comment in instead of having to go to multiple forums to see all those topics.
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby Munboy » Sun Sep 13, 2009 12:58 pm

Munboy wrote:Madison... That's what makes me believe that the forums should be condensed. I don't know about you guys, but I don't like searching forum upon forum trying to find topics I'm interested in. When I get on here, I go to Leftovers, Steelers (if theres a new post), GT, and game commentary when there's games going on. I really don't have the time or patience to click through 80+ forums looking for topics I might want to chime in on. Having all those threads you said was in leftovers means that a person can go to ONE forum and see all those topics and pick and choose which ones he wants to read and/or comment in instead of having to go to multiple forums to see all those topics.


And just to prove my point, I had some thoughts about a college game from yesterday.... And I can't really find where to post at for college football (There used to be a college football forum). So, I have to keep my thoughts to myself...and that's a bad thing :-b
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Re: Slowest its been during a week 1

Postby FatFoot » Sun Sep 13, 2009 4:50 pm

Madison wrote:Actually the entire thing is quite the opposite.

My comment was about you thinking Leftovers was the "main-line forum", because it isn't. You could put a couch and television in your garage and call it a den or party room, but it is still a garage.


So that's 2 people saying that Leftovers is just the chaff, and EVERYONE else saying "That forum is WHY I COME HERE." Who has it wrong? Is it a goal to have this site used only for start/sit and draft forums? Do you think you'll keep a well informed, active user community by doing that?

Everyone is saying "I don't want to have to read several forums to get this information" etc... the fact that you guys could move 30 some posts from leftovers into forums where they'll either be ignored or buried under dozens of "please help my team" posts (which are great, but they're SINGLE USER threads) seems entirely irrelevant.

I don't think veteran users will stick around just to help with people's start/sit and draft/trade questions. Minimizing what is valuable to them probably isn't good for the overall quality of info here.

I get tired of hearing people complain only to complain. Constructive criticism is great and taken into consideration (and even implemented quite often), but griping just to gripe is easily discarded. Especially when it comes from those with a long track record of doing just that.

(*Disclaimer - Not naming any names. Just pointing out that if someone doesn't contribute in a positive manner, is always combative, drives members away due to their behavior, and complains just to complain, it is very easy to just discard anything someone like that says.)

Matthias wrote:Somehow I doubt I hurt Madison's feelings


Correct, you didn't. But remember the knife cuts both ways now. It was really in the Cafe's best interest for me to be polite as much as possible in the past. But nowadays, me being polite is a courtesy that isn't guaranteed. My behavior could drop down to an equal level at the snap of a finger.


So what's the point? Why be a mod if you want to act like any other poster? Mods with attitudes kill forums. What's the point in expressing that you've got a hair trigger, etc. All it's going to do is get someone to try testing it.
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