Reform school for a 6 year old? - Fantasy Football Cafe 2014 Fantasy Football Cafe


Return to General Talk

Reform school for a 6 year old?

Moderator: Football Moderators

Re: Reform school for a 6 year old?

Postby dream_017 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:17 am

Art Vandelay wrote:
dream_017 wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:Yes, 'zero tolerance' laws are always ridiculous, in my opinion.

I always love reading the articles about a drunk driver killing someone. They usually have some type of line in the story where they have been pulled over before or already had their license suspended. Always makes me feel better that they get that second, third and forth chance to kill someone. Down with zero tolerance.

That's a horrible example, and actually illustrates how zero tolerance doesn't work.

Pretty sure there isn't zero tolerence...that is why they get chance 2,3,4. There is even a 3 stikes law in many states, yet, you still read about how they get a 4,5, and 6th chance.

My point was that people are too dumb. That is the reason for zero tolerance laws. This is a school, why would a mother let her kid bring it to school in the first place. She should let him use it at home when he eats or use it around the house. Maybe even explain it to him that it is against the rules to take to school. It has no reason being at the school. The only reason many people are making a big deal about this is because nobody got hurt. What if the kids were playing on the playground and the kids fell and one was stabbed with this fork/knife. I wouldn't be too happy if I was the parent, especially knowing that as long as noone got hurt it was OK to bring to school, even thought it is against the rules. Then again, rules don't apply as long as somebody isn't hurt or not part your (not specific to you Art) family and friends.
dream_017
Cafe Google
Cafe Google

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly WinnerMatchup Meltdown SurvivorCafe Blackjack Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 15301
(Past Year: 58)
Joined: 3 Aug 2004
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Ford Field: Section - 132; Row - 19; Seat - 11

Re: Reform school for a 6 year old?

Postby Art Vandelay » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:31 am

dream_017 wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:
dream_017 wrote:I always love reading the articles about a drunk driver killing someone. They usually have some type of line in the story where they have been pulled over before or already had their license suspended. Always makes me feel better that they get that second, third and forth chance to kill someone. Down with zero tolerance.

That's a horrible example, and actually illustrates how zero tolerance doesn't work.

Pretty sure there isn't zero tolerence...that is why they get chance 2,3,4. There is even a 3 stikes law in many states, yet, you still read about how they get a 4,5, and 6th chance.

Unless zero tolerance for drunk drivers means the death penalty after one offense, it won't prevent people from driving drunk in the future. Even if you suspend their license for life, people can and will still drive--as you mentioned earlier--with no license.

dream_017 wrote:My point was that people are too dumb. That is the reason for zero tolerance laws. This is a school, why would a mother let her kid bring it to school in the first place. She should let him use it at home when he eats or use it around the house. Maybe even explain it to him that it is against the rules to take to school. It has no reason being at the school.

You're right, zero tolerance laws exist becuase of dumb people, particularly dumb people in positions of authority that institute such rules. A parent would let a kid bring it to school because it's a utensil. It's no more dangerous than the forks that are available in the school's cafeteria. There is no good reason for it to not be at school.

dream_017 wrote:The only reason many people are making a big deal about this is because nobody got hurt. What if the kids were playing on the playground and the kids fell and one was stabbed with this fork/knife.

What if a kid falls on a sharpened pencil and it puntures him? Should we ban pencils from schools? What if a kid walks into a wall or a window and gets hurt, should we get rid of walls and windows? We can play the "what if" game all day long with literally everything in a school. The point is that it's not the particular item that is inherently dangerous, it's an individual's actions with or in proximity to the item that may put themselves orothers at risk. Ban the risky behavior, not the utensil.

dream_017 wrote:I wouldn't be too happy if I was the parent, especially knowing that as long as noone got hurt it was OK to bring to school, even thought it is against the rules. Then again, rules don't apply as long as somebody isn't hurt or not part your (not specific to you Art) family and friends.

I'm not saying the rules don't, or shouldn't apply--the kid should face whatever punishment ther rule calls for, what I'm saying is it shouldn't be a rule in the first place.
Art Vandelay
Offensive Coordinator
Offensive Coordinator


Posts: 749
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Reform school for a 6 year old?

Postby dream_017 » Thu Oct 15, 2009 10:40 am

Art Vandelay wrote: Ban the risky behavior, not the utensil.


The risky behavior is bringing the uensil to school. As you said they already have utensils in the cafeteria
dream_017
Cafe Google
Cafe Google

User avatar
ModeratorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe MusketeerWeb SupporterPick 3 Weekly WinnerMatchup Meltdown SurvivorCafe Blackjack Weekly WinnerLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 15301
(Past Year: 58)
Joined: 3 Aug 2004
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Ford Field: Section - 132; Row - 19; Seat - 11

Re: Reform school for a 6 year old?

Postby Madison » Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:36 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
Madison wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:This is just the latest example of why "zero tolerance" rules are ridiculous. I'd argue that knives shouldn't be outlawed in schools at all, rather, we should regulate behavior.


Oh come on Art, it's not always ridiculous :-b , they dismissed it in this case and the kid is back in school.

And allow knives in school? The benefit would be...?

Yes, 'zero tolerance' laws are always ridiculous, in my opinion. And the benefit of allowing knives in school would be having knives in school, in addition to not having another stupid zero tolerance rule. Knives are a tool, they don't need to be regulated any more than screwdrivers. What needs to be regulated is one's behavior...what they do with the knife. I used to bring a knife to school every day, I needed it when I went to work after school. Now I couldn't even leave it locked in my car on school grounds.


Telling the kids no knives and then punishing those that bring them anyway IS in fact regulating one's behavior.

Art Vandelay wrote:You're right, zero tolerance laws exist becuase of dumb people, particularly dumb people in positions of authority that institute such rules. A parent would let a kid bring it to school because it's a utensil. It's no more dangerous than the forks that are available in the school's cafeteria. There is no good reason for it to not be at school.


Forks are as sharp and cut just as easily as knives?
Image

I am the Reaper of Men,
The Chaser of Souls,
The Weaver of Nightmares,
I am The Heart of Darkness.
I now, and ever will be,
The Purity of Evil.
Madison
Lord of Darkness
Lord of Darkness

User avatar
ExecutiveMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeInnovative MemberMatchup Meltdown ChampionLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 5979
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Re: Reform school for a 6 year old?

Postby steelerfan513 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:53 am

Where has common sense gone in this country, and on this board?

We can play the "what if" game about what could have possibly happened that could've made this fork/knife/spoon hurt someone, and those possibilities do exist. It's fine that the school disallows bringing these kinds of items in because those rules are in place to keep students safe. But when it's blatantly obvious that a student didn't bring something into school with the intention of hurting someone, common sense should kick in and override the letter of the rule. Intent needs to be taken into consideration.

This kind of punishment only derides the intent of these zero tolerance rules. If schools punish every kid who brings in an object that could in some circumstance be used to hurt other students, it will make people less likely to believe the school's argument in cases where the student did bring the item in to harm other students. Common sense needs to prevail over an inflexible, written policy that can't make human judgments. Otherwise, they'll wind up handing out an absurd punishment the media will jump on, thus calling into question all zero tolerance policies and making them less likely to stand up in punishing students who commit offenses the policy is supposed to be preventing.

Did a student or teacher report the student threatening to use the item on other kids. Did someone witness him doing so? Could the student simply be guilty of not knowing an item that didn't seem dangerous to him was banned because it could be dangerous in certain situations? School officials need to ask these kinds of questions and gather information before enforcing the rule.

We can't say anything about what the parents or student should've known/done without knowing the full context of the situation. Maybe the parents didn't know he had decided to take the utensil into school. If they didn't, how is a six-year-old supposed to reason that an eating utensil, which as multiple people pointed out IS PROVIDED BY THE SCHOOL IN THE CAFETERIA and is something that he uses on a daily basis for a non-dangerous purpose, could be construed as a weapon? How can we expect him to assume that bringing an eating utensil into school could be considered "risky behavior"? That's expecting way too much out of a first grader.
Image
Image
Kudos to Leber for the amazing sig and to Metroid for the userbar and making them both fit
2008 and 2009 Defunct Dynasty League Champion
steelerfan513
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeMatchup Meltdown Survivor
Posts: 11906
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Home Cafe: Football

Re: Reform school for a 6 year old?

Postby Art Vandelay » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:06 pm

Madison wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:You're right, zero tolerance laws exist becuase of dumb people, particularly dumb people in positions of authority that institute such rules. A parent would let a kid bring it to school because it's a utensil. It's no more dangerous than the forks that are available in the school's cafeteria. There is no good reason for it to not be at school.


Forks are as sharp and cut just as easily as knives?

Not sure how you got that from what I said.

A knife is not inherently more dangerous than a fork, it becomes more dangerous when someone uses it as a weapon. On the other hand, a fork being used as a weapon is far more dangerous than a knife being used by someone to cut their steak. We shouldn't make zero tolerance rules against something as benign as a knife, we should make rules (and have made them) agaisnt using a knife as a weapon or in an otherwise harmful or threatening manner.
Art Vandelay
Offensive Coordinator
Offensive Coordinator


Posts: 749
Joined: 12 Mar 2005
Home Cafe: Baseball

Re: Reform school for a 6 year old?

Postby Madison » Fri Oct 16, 2009 8:59 pm

Art Vandelay wrote:
Madison wrote:
Art Vandelay wrote:You're right, zero tolerance laws exist becuase of dumb people, particularly dumb people in positions of authority that institute such rules. A parent would let a kid bring it to school because it's a utensil. It's no more dangerous than the forks that are available in the school's cafeteria. There is no good reason for it to not be at school.


Forks are as sharp and cut just as easily as knives?

Not sure how you got that from what I said.

A knife is not inherently more dangerous than a fork, it becomes more dangerous when someone uses it as a weapon. On the other hand, a fork being used as a weapon is far more dangerous than a knife being used by someone to cut their steak. We shouldn't make zero tolerance rules against something as benign as a knife, we should make rules (and have made them) agaisnt using a knife as a weapon or in an otherwise harmful or threatening manner.


You said:

Art Vandelay wrote:It's no more dangerous than the forks that are available


And I certainly disagree.

By your logic, kids should be allowed to walk around with live bombs strapped to their chests. Heck, as long as they don't press the "boom" button, bombs aren't dangerous at all... ;-7

:-b
Image

I am the Reaper of Men,
The Chaser of Souls,
The Weaver of Nightmares,
I am The Heart of Darkness.
I now, and ever will be,
The Purity of Evil.
Madison
Lord of Darkness
Lord of Darkness

User avatar
ExecutiveMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeInnovative MemberMatchup Meltdown ChampionLucky Ladders Weekly Winner
Posts: 5979
Joined: 29 Apr 2003
Home Cafe: Baseball
Location: Taking Souls...

Re: Reform school for a 6 year old?

Postby scottaa1 » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:10 pm

Frankly, at 6, that kid should be an apprentice for a factory job somewhere, he's wasting his life going to school past kindergarten.

HELLO. Kobe need a new pair of Nike.
Image
Thanks Chaoyi Shih for the sig.
scottaa1
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
EditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterMock(ing) DrafterGolden Eagle EyePick 3 Weekly WinnerMatchup Meltdown SurvivorCafe Blackjack Weekly Winner
Posts: 8540
(Past Year: 13)
Joined: 17 Oct 2004
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Indy

Re: Reform school for a 6 year old?

Postby joejlitz » Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:19 am

He is 6.

Do I need to say it again?

The previous poster was absolutely right. Scott, you were right, too but I am referring to Steelerfan. Intent is key here. And again,

He is 6.
"There is no charge for awesomeness or attractiveness." - Po (Kung Fu Panda)
Image
joejlitz
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
EditorCafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe SpotterCafe MusketeerPick 3 Weekly WinnerMatchup Meltdown SurvivorCafe Blackjack Weekly Winner
Posts: 7050
(Past Year: 37)
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Home Cafe: Football
Location: G-14 Classified

Previous

Return to General Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Start & Sit Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Get Ready...
The 2014 NFL season kicks off in 7:29 hours
(and 45 days)
2014 NFL Schedule


  • Fantasy Football
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact