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Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Fade2White12 » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:02 pm

mattb47 wrote:You act like it's really simple, just deciding to change the way you hold the ball when you run...something he has practiced SO many times before that it's very, very difficult to completely change the way you do that. If it was so "simple", don't you think pretty much every player would have these problems taken care of?? The plain fact of the matter is that it's NOT simple and it's surely not something you change in the middle of the season.


Actually, the solution is very simple. The implementation of that solution is what is sometimes difficult. That's up to the individual player how long it takes. Quite a few NFL players make mechanical adjustments on the fly. You think they don't? Regardless, you seem so defensive about this. Why can't I have an opinion and you have yours?

mattb47 wrote:Also...college has NOTHING to do with it because the caliber of defenses faced is nowhere near the same. He wasn't getting hit as hard, as often, or as well in college as he does now in the Pros. The comparison in this kind of thing just isn't there because the caliber of player isn't the same at all.


Ok. If you believe that an NFL player's college career has "NOTHING" to do with it, go ahead, but I wouldn't dare say that. But I also brought up his rookie season in the NFL, where he only fumbled 3 times. You also must not have seen any of Slaton's fumbles this year. They aren't the product of being "hit harder."

mattb47 wrote:That's entirely the point I was making...it's a very similar scheme and if Moats can perform...then why risk a guy who might fumble so frequently? And the whole thing is that the coaching staff has MADE it a big deal with the fumbling and he's already fumbled 7 times this season. It might not be a change of the guard but there's little doubt they don't fully trust him.


What is your definition of Moats "performing?" Somehow being a #1 RB? You really expect that to happen if he were to be given the opportunity? 3 teams in 4 years, and only a handful of career carries? The reason why you "risk" it, is because of the upside. If the coaches end up feeling after the bye that Slaton has done a great job in practice protecting the ball and altering his technique, they're not going to continue to give the majority of the touches to a mediocre RB just because the threat of Slaton fumbling is there.

Really guys, mourning the fantasy death of Slaton is premature. People are really saying he's going to be a 3rd down back from now on, and get only 5 carries a game? I don't see how that's possible. Let's see how effective the Texans' offense against Indy next week if they don't give Slaton his normal load.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Kensat30 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:11 pm

Fade2White12 wrote:
Really guys, mourning the fantasy death of Slaton is premature. People are really saying he's going to be a 3rd down back from now on, and get only 5 carries a game? I don't see how that's possible. Let's see how effective the Texans' offense against Indy next week if they don't give Slaton his normal load.


If I was Kubiak, that's exactly what I would do. If Moats had been starting this entire time and not fumbling away in critical spots like Slaton and Brown have been doing, Houston is likely 6-2 or even 7-1 right now. Kubiak comes from a team in Denver that had one of the best systems in the league and guys were interchangable. Why would he stick a guy in there with a proven turnover problem when another guy has come in off the bench and done more than the fumbler has all season in one game of play.

Moats is the starting Rb in Houston right now until proven differently IMO. Anybody holding onto Slaton thinking that the guy will be handed his job back free of charge at some yet to determined date later in the season is delusional IMO. The evidence is right there on the box score. 20+ carries 100+ yards 3 TDs and ZERO fumbles and a convincing WIN. That's your starting RB right there.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Fade2White12 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:55 pm

Kensat30 wrote:If I was Kubiak, that's exactly what I would do. If Moats had been starting this entire time and not fumbling away in critical spots like Slaton and Brown have been doing, Houston is likely 6-2 or even 7-1 right now. Kubiak comes from a team in Denver that had one of the best systems in the league and guys were interchangable. Why would he stick a guy in there with a proven turnover problem when another guy has come in off the bench and done more than the fumbler has all season in one game of play.

Moats is the starting Rb in Houston right now until proven differently IMO. Anybody holding onto Slaton thinking that the guy will be handed his job back free of charge at some yet to determined date later in the season is delusional IMO. The evidence is right there on the box score. 20+ carries 100+ yards 3 TDs and ZERO fumbles and a convincing WIN. That's your starting RB right there.


^Case in point - Slaton's fantasy death is overstated. As a side-note - I like when people in posts say things like "anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional" or "naive," etc. You obviously know what I believe in this thread (which is, gasp, different than yours), so why not just go out and say "Fade2White12 is delusional!"? That probably wouldn't be very nice, would it? :-b Yet that's what you're saying.

But anyway, you're obviously making several huge assumptions here - like that Moats would have performed well against those defenses that weren't last in the league against the rush, rather than being Larry Johnson-esque. That Slaton's fumbles cost them 1-2 games, or that Moats, being a less explosive, worse in pass protection, and worse receiving RB would have put them in a better chance to win. Slaton's production helped them win against Cincinnati, and especially against the 49ers. Also, Moats doesn't have a flawless fumble history either. Their fumble per carry numbers really aren't all that far apart, considering how few touches Moats has had in his career.

I use don't react to one game. So forgive me if Moats playing well against a really bad defense in one game doesn't lead me to relegate solely Slaton to third down duty.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Kensat30 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:33 pm

How often does a guy who gets benched early in a game, and sees absolutely ZERO playing time in that same game, go on to regain his starting role the following week? I just don't understand the rationale that Moats is a one week wonder.

Why on Earth should Slaton owners expect a return to glory when that guy is getting sat on the bench for the entire game! You just don't do that to your feature RB unless he is injured or he is not your feature RB. If anything, I think you should expect to see some Reggie Bush like treatment while Moats steps up to be the Pierre Thomas.

Hoping is one thing, expecting is another. I can't believe there are so many analysts out there are spouting off that Slaton is the guy you still want, don't let one week sway your opinion, and even go so far as to rank Slaton in their top10 plays this week! Huh? Do these guys not watch football games? Did you not see Ryan Moats breaking off big play after big play last week and EARN himself that job going forward? I did, and I bought in on Moats in every league that I could.

This is the type of 2nd half breakout that can lead to championships. Three weeks ago did Roy Williams owners hope and expect Roy Williams to pick back up that #1 role in Dallas simply because he was the guy before? Did they let Roy Williams sway their opinion on Miles Austin? How many people called this guy a one week wonder 3 weeks ago. I'm kicking myself for not making more aggressive moves to get this guy. IF the guy has the talent to put up big numbers in any week, than that same guy has the talent to put up big numbers going forward. For every Frisman Jackson there are Anquan Boldins and Ryan Grants out there.

It's not like Slaton is an established guy in this league, he won his own way into the starting role last year due to injuries and ineffectiveness and we are seeing Moats now get that same opportunity. As a Slaton owner in one league, I am expecting Reggie Bush like situation going forward. I hope for a Tatum Bell/Mike Bell like split. In my wildest dreams I would consider Slaton back as a 3 down RB with the occasioanl goalline thief like it was before the benching.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Fade2White12 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:58 pm

Kensat30 wrote:How often does a guy who gets benched early in a game, and sees absolutely ZERO playing time in that same game, go on to regain his starting role the following week? I just don't understand the rationale that Moats is a one week wonder.

Why on Earth should Slaton owners expect a return to glory when that guy is getting sat on the bench for the entire game! You just don't do that to your feature RB unless he is injured or he is not your feature RB. If anything, I think you should expect to see some Reggie Bush like treatment while Moats steps up to be the Pierre Thomas.


I was under the impression, by your earlier posts, that you weren't talking just about "the following week." I thought you assumed Moats was now the guy in Houston indefinitely. But when you say that you don't understand why people think he's a one week wonder, is that really what you mean? You don't understand how we think that? Regardless of whether you disagree, you have to respect the merits of our arguments (or I should I say MY argument, since no one here has agreed with me, except most fantasy analysts).

Kensat30 wrote:Hoping is one thing, expecting is another. I can't believe there are so many analysts out there are spouting off that Slaton is the guy you still want, don't let one week sway your opinion, and even go so far as to rank Slaton in their top10 plays this week! Huh? Do these guys not watch football games? Did you not see Ryan Moats breaking off big play after big play last week and EARN himself that job going forward? I did, and I bought in on Moats in every league that I could.


I agree with them that Slaton is still the back you want, and I'd argue 75% of people here would say that too. But which analysts still have him as a top 10 option this week? I haven't really seen any yet, whether it be Yahoo, ESPN, CBS, Fantasy Sharks, FFToolbox, or FFToday. But really, out of all people, I'd assume you Kensat to be a person who wouldn't jump to such conclusions about how this pans out. Maybe it's because you own Moats in every league you could?

Kensat30 wrote:This is the type of 2nd half breakout that can lead to championships. Three weeks ago did Roy Williams owners hope and expect Roy Williams to pick back up that #1 role in Dallas simply because he was the guy before? Did they let Roy Williams sway their opinion on Miles Austin? How many people called this guy a one week wonder 3 weeks ago. I'm kicking myself for not making more aggressive moves to get this guy. IF the guy has the talent to put up big numbers in any week, than that same guy has the talent to put up big numbers going forward. For every Frisman Jackson there are Anquan Boldins and Ryan Grants out there.


I think that thinking is part of the problem. Every year there is a 2nd half player that ends up leading teams through the playoffs. Therefore, every year people are trying to be the person who jumps on that one FA in hopes that they caught lightning in a bottle. Roy Williams, though, is not a very good comparison. Roy is a mediocre NFL talent at best, while most people (sans the fumbling issue) would say that Slaton is on the verge of being an NFL superstar. But regardless, because Miles Austin seems here to stay, it doesn't mean Moats is by default. Could he be? Maybe, but I doubt it. He's less explosive, slower, a worse receiver, and a worse pass blocker. Other than Slaton's fumbles, which are usually just technique and/or mental issues, not talent or physical, Slaton is a better NFL RB across the board. It's true, those breakout players come a long all the time, but I don't see Moats as being the RB that does it. I'd put my stock in Jamal Charles and Beanie Wells before I would with Moats.

Kensat30 wrote:It's not like Slaton is an established guy in this league, he won his own way into the starting role last year due to injuries and ineffectiveness and we are seeing Moats now get that same opportunity. As a Slaton owner in one league, I am expecting Reggie Bush like situation going forward. I hope for a Tatum Bell/Mike Bell like split. In my wildest dreams I would consider Slaton back as a 3 down RB with the occasioanl goalline thief like it was before the benching.


I'm not saying that picking up Moats is a bad idea, not at all. It's like picking up any FA who performs well the week before - MSW, Massaquoi, Austin, Steve Smith NYG, Greene, etc. However, I simply don't see him making the most of that opportunity. While it's true that it seems like this is the same progression that happened with Slaton last year, how can one forget those incredible stats he put up? It's not like players are benched, someone takes his place, performs like a pro-bowler, then is religated to 3rd down work. Slaton made the most of his opportunity through a 16 game span. Moats has done so through 1. I'm not ready to anoint him as the new Steve Slaton (ironic, huh) because of a good game against the league's worst defense.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby mattb47 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:10 pm

I'm sorry...but you're the one being a little premature if you view Slaton as a player being on the verge of an NFL Superstar...that's a little out of his reach at the moment...hasn't done nearly enough to deserve that kind of credit.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Kensat30 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:34 pm

If Slaton doesn't win his job back next week, then when does he win it back? If Slaton is so much better than Moats in all ways then why was his ass on the bench the entire game last week? Because Houston is tired of the turnovers and they want to win football games. That's the only stat the matters to head coachs: Ws. Moats got them there last week reinforcing the decision to sit down Slaton on the bench. New week, clean slate for Slaton? Then why has the coach come out and been vague about this guy starting the game? BECAUSE HE WON'T BE THE STARTER! Houston is better off lining this guy up as a WR now that Daniels is out.

9 out of 10 fantasy publications have Slaton ranked higher than Moats this week. Why? The guy can score from anywhere on the field EXCEPT the bench. Again, if you think Moats may be the guy or even the better play this coming week, then why not for the rest of the season as well?
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby SameSongNDance » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:18 pm

Steve Slaton = flex play
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Fade2White12 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:29 pm

mattb47 wrote:I'm sorry...but you're the one being a little premature if you view Slaton as a player being on the verge of an NFL Superstar...that's a little out of his reach at the moment...hasn't done nearly enough to deserve that kind of credit.


Don't be sorry. What, are you going to argue semantics? Being in the top 1/3 of NFL RBs is obviously not a "Superstar" to you. I'll have to find NFL Superstar in the dictionary to find out the true meaning.

Kensat30 wrote:If Slaton doesn't win his job back next week, then when does he win it back? If Slaton is so much better than Moats in all ways then why was his ass on the bench the entire game last week? Because Houston is tired of the turnovers and they want to win football games. That's the only stat the matters to head coachs: Ws.


Should I know the exact date that Slaton "wins" his job back (assuming it's even lost)? If I had to bet, I'd say it's after both of their performances in this week's game against Indy. But you answered your own question. He was benched because he fumbled, and it's something that needs to be resolved. It is in no way because Moats is a superior NFL back. Are you trying to tell me that you think otherwise? That Moats is more skilled at the position than Slaton? I find it hard to believe that anyone could say it with a straight face.

Kensat30 wrote:Moats got them there last week reinforcing the decision to sit down Slaton on the bench. New week, clean slate for Slaton? Then why has the coach come out and been vague about this guy starting the game? BECAUSE HE WON'T BE THE STARTER! Houston is better off lining this guy up as a WR now that Daniels is out.


Because Moats obviously played well in his stead. Would it be equitable to completely relegate him back to obscurity after playing well? Personally, I think Moats is an OK player - better than Brown for instance and should take his carries - but not better than Slaton. If you've ever listened to anything Houston Chronicle writer John McClain has written (who sadly is also one who jumps on and off bandwagons all the time), he just last week, when asked about Slaton's fumbling problem, if Moats is comparable. He said, and I believe this is a rough quote, that he "couldn't carry Slaton's jock." Now he loves him, but won't in a few weeks, I'm sure.

Kensat30 wrote:9 out of 10 fantasy publications have Slaton ranked higher than Moats this week. Why? The guy can score from anywhere on the field EXCEPT the bench. Again, if you think Moats may be the guy or even the better play this coming week, then why not for the rest of the season as well?


I don't think I ever said that Moats would be the better play. In fact, I think I said that Slaton is the better play this week, and every remaining week.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby mattb47 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:29 pm

Superstars are the ELITE players in the league...what makes them special is that there are NOT a ton of them and top 1/3 of NFL RBs does not make someone a superstar. He can't even win over the support of his own coaching staff so how can he be considered an NFL superstar? I feel like you have an exceptionally inflated view of just how good Slaton is and that there's no way this ultra talented back will be subjected to a very diminutive role because of his inability to stop fumbling the football.
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