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Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby u_fig_eater » Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:16 pm

mattb47 wrote:Superstars are the ELITE players in the league...what makes them special is that there are NOT a ton of them and top 1/3 of NFL RBs does not make someone a superstar. He can't even win over the support of his own coaching staff so how can he be considered an NFL superstar? I feel like you have an exceptionally inflated view of just how good Slaton is and that there's no way this ultra talented back will be subjected to a very diminutive role because of his inability to stop fumbling the football.


He didn't say he is a superstar, he said he could become one.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby mattb47 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:40 pm

u_fig_eater wrote:
mattb47 wrote:Superstars are the ELITE players in the league...what makes them special is that there are NOT a ton of them and top 1/3 of NFL RBs does not make someone a superstar. He can't even win over the support of his own coaching staff so how can he be considered an NFL superstar? I feel like you have an exceptionally inflated view of just how good Slaton is and that there's no way this ultra talented back will be subjected to a very diminutive role because of his inability to stop fumbling the football.


He didn't say he is a superstar, he said he could become one.


He actually said he's on the verge of becoming one which isn't saying he just could become one...but that he's really BECOMING one, which he's really not if he's getting benched by his team in games. Superstars and borderline, about to become superstars don't get benched by their team and have them play better after they do.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Kareighuis » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:48 am

From everything I've seen (I'm not focusing on Houston's RB situation), Slaton's issues are-
1) Fumbling. Everyone's talking about this here;
2) Playing style. The blocking scheme Houston employs encourages the RB to cut back when the line opens a hole. Slaton, however, constantly tries to bounce runs outside. On similar plays, Slaton ran 2 yards, Moats about 15. Slaton tried to run off the left side, but his speed was neutralized by having to run around the blockers and defenders stacked up there, while Moats cut back to the gaping hole in the middle.

Bottom line- Moats is simply more inclined to run between the tackles. He's not a better talent, he's just a better match for this offensive system. Whether Slaton will ever regain his value, or will be relegated to a Reggie Bush role, I don't know.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Fade2White12 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:00 am

mattb47 wrote:He actually said he's on the verge of becoming one which isn't saying he just could become one...but that he's really BECOMING one, which he's really not if he's getting benched by his team in games. Superstars and borderline, about to become superstars don't get benched by their team and have them play better after they do.


Are you really choosing to argue about three words from my entire argument? I mean really... Makes it look like your grasping at straws. I think I'm entitled to my opinion here. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing. But if you really think that NFL coaches have never benched any of their best players as a motivational tactic, you're kidding yourself.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Fade2White12 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:23 am

Kareighuis wrote:2) Playing style. The blocking scheme Houston employs encourages the RB to cut back when the line opens a hole. Slaton, however, constantly tries to bounce runs outside. On similar plays, Slaton ran 2 yards, Moats about 15. Slaton tried to run off the left side, but his speed was neutralized by having to run around the blockers and defenders stacked up there, while Moats cut back to the gaping hole in the middle.


I think this is rather hard to prove, actually. First, this is skewed because of the opponent Houston faced. I'm not sure if you saw the entire game or not, but even Larry Johnson could have topped 100 yards. During every single one of Moats' large gains, he was barely touched, if not at all. That would be a valid point if we saw Slaton play last game against the same defense. Then we could compare what they both did against the same poor Bills front, but we can't.

Second, what do you consider "constantly?" Slaton has 25 out of 110 rushes to the left and right edge. That's about 22%. The majority of those rushes to the outside are designed plays anyway - a lot of tosses and sweeps out of I-form and singleback sets. The other 88% come on runs up the middle, and to the left and right sides on power o and counters, especially out of the I-form and offsets.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Kareighuis » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:46 am

Fade2White12 wrote:
Kareighuis wrote:2) Playing style. The blocking scheme Houston employs encourages the RB to cut back when the line opens a hole. Slaton, however, constantly tries to bounce runs outside. On similar plays, Slaton ran 2 yards, Moats about 15. Slaton tried to run off the left side, but his speed was neutralized by having to run around the blockers and defenders stacked up there, while Moats cut back to the gaping hole in the middle.


I think this is rather hard to prove, actually. First, this is skewed because of the opponent Houston faced. I'm not sure if you saw the entire game or not, but even Larry Johnson could have topped 100 yards. During every single one of Moats' large gains, he was barely touched, if not at all. That would be a valid point if we saw Slaton play last game against the same defense. Then we could compare what they both did against the same poor Bills front, but we can't.

Second, what do you consider "constantly?" Slaton has 25 out of 110 rushes to the left and right edge. That's about 22%. The majority of those rushes to the outside are designed plays anyway - a lot of tosses and sweeps out of I-form and singleback sets. The other 88% come on runs up the middle, and to the left and right sides on power o and counters, especially out of the I-form and offsets.


I based that on my analysis and the analysis of others from this passed weekend.

If I substituted "too often" in place of "constantly", would that work? He tries to take it outside "too much", bounces it "too much", goes to the perimeter "too much" when the middle is open. I don't know if it's a lack of toughness, lack of vision, faulty decision-making, lack of initiative when the way the play as called won't work as well as an alternative (run it up the middle), but there's a least one thing more wrong with Slaton beyond his fumbling issues- when he's running to the perimeter (his choice or as the play is called) and the middle opens up, he doesn't adjust. That isn't stats-based analysis, that's what I've seen.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Fade2White12 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:27 am

Kareighuis wrote:I based that on my analysis and the analysis of others from this passed weekend.

If I substituted "too often" in place of "constantly", would that work? He tries to take it outside "too much", bounces it "too much", goes to the perimeter "too much" when the middle is open. I don't know if it's a lack of toughness, lack of vision, faulty decision-making, lack of initiative when the way the play as called won't work as well as an alternative (run it up the middle), but there's a least one thing more wrong with Slaton beyond his fumbling issues- when he's running to the perimeter (his choice or as the play is called) and the middle opens up, he doesn't adjust. That isn't stats-based analysis, that's what I've seen.


I'm not trying to pick on the word you used, I'm just trying to understand how you came to that conclusion, when not all that many of Slaton's rushes have been to the outside. A similar build back like CJ24, for instance, has 32% of his rushes to the outside.

But again, I think using this one game as the only evidence to draw a conclusion is not a good idea. Five out of Slaton's seven games were against tough rush defenses, and a 6th, Jacksonville, has a very strong presence on the inside - which is why quicker backs have done much better against them. The holes and run blocking were not nearly as good in previous weeks as they were against Buffalo. Moats can run in a straight line through a hole a bus could drive through. Great. But if Slaton would have been the lead back last game, he would have done the same. But what you see and indecisiveness (which I have watched every Texans game this season), it's more a product of the defense they've been playing and the o-line being more adept at pass-blocking.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Kensat30 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:11 pm

Count down until the world finds out that Moats is the starting RB in Houston = 2 days
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby moochman » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:47 pm

Kensat30 wrote:Count down until the world finds out that Moats is the starting RB in Houston = 2 days



I was just thinking today that the coach is making a mistake in Houston. This is a big game for them, the Colts secondary just went on IR and they may have a real shot to win in Indy. I think it would be better for them to focus on the Colts instead of goofing around with the old "who will start" shell game. Moats should start and Slaton should be told to get his career out of his caboose.
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Re: Steve Slaton = 1 fumble per week

Postby Fade2White12 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:03 pm

Kensat30 wrote:Count down until the world finds out that Moats is the starting RB in Houston = 2 days


Would you like to clarify? If Moats starts but Slaton gets more work, or does much more with his touches, you'll consider that a victory for you? And what do you mean that he'll be the starting RB - are you saying for the rest of the year? For this week only?
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