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Spygate revisted.

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Re: Spygate revisted.

Postby mattb47 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:07 am

Metroid wrote:Obviously the Pats decline can be attributed to Gisele Bündchen whom Tom Brady started dating in January of 2007. Coincidence? I think not. :-B


Argument over. ;-D
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Re: Spygate revisted.

Postby steelerfan513 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:27 pm

moochman wrote:Did you know that during the 2007 season, year of the Spygate on the Chinese calendar, the Patriots scored 30 or more points in 13 games, often rolling over other teams, showing total domination.


I think you're forgetting the timeline of events during that season mooch.

Sept. 9, 2007: Patriots beat Jets 38-14
Sept. 14, 2007: Patriots punished for illegal camera use against Jets during Week 1 game
Sept. 16, 2007 - Dec. 29, 2007: Patriots win rest of games to go 16-0

Unless you think that the Patriots continued to cheat after getting caught, then you can't attribute what they accomplished in 2007 (at least in 15 of their 16 games) to cheating. Even if you think that, you're going to have to convince skeptics that they, for some unknown reason, decided that they would stop in the following seasons, thus causing their drop in production more so than a severe knee injury to their franchise quarterback and their drop-off on the defensive side of the ball. I think it's simply a case of you forgot when exactly they got caught cheating in relation to their 16-0 season (s*** happens), but correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Spygate revisted.

Postby Munboy » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:35 pm

Plus, it's not like the Pats have fallen to the bottom of the pile since then. They had their perfect regular season. They still had a really good season last year without Brady, and they did make the playoffs this year. Yes, the Pats cheated (regardless of what Billy B says). Yes it was very naughty of them. It's over with. They're not going to take away the SBs. They were punished and the league moved on. So should everybody else :-b
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Re: Spygate revisted.

Postby dream_017 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:02 pm

moochman wrote:I mentioned about the changes in coaching and Brady's recovery issues, but we are talking about 10 pts a game difference. Now, in looking at the numbers you've provided, it suggests that the cheating was more instrumental in the winning. If you were stealing signs or whatever other cheating shenanigans they were up to, wouldn't it make sense that you would use it more, and get better at it, against teams you face more and that you want to beat more? Interdivisional games they scored 16.5 more points in the Spygate year? 16.5 points!?! It just stuns me just how big an effect their cheating appears to have had.
This puts a lot of extra pressure on Brady in the next couple seasons. If he plays like this year than maybe we have to re-think just how much praise we should give him.


You do realize that all 3 teams in their division have different coaches from 2007 to 2009 right? Do you think they run the same plays, have the same signals. You just cannot compare 2 different years. Way too many factors.
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Re: Spygate revisted.

Postby Kareighuis » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:09 pm

u_fig_eater wrote:
Kareighuis wrote:Can you imagine a 2009 offense with a Randy Moss that didn't lallygag so much?

I'd probably attribute that season to Brady getting actual weapons at WR in Moss and Welker. Moss started playing to his talent level and Welker was a virtual unknown. As much as I've bashed NE for the whole spygate thing, I'd say those two (not the coach, coordinators or Brady) were the reasons for that season.

Now, the lack of a running game and questions in the defense (especially in the secondary) have created a one-dimensional offense.


I started a whole thread on the Moss controversy...but I'm just going to say that he "lallygagged" his way to the 2nd-best fantasy season of any WR. Also:

He beat his career average for receiving yards / year (1264 > 1205)

He beat his career average for TDs / year (13 > 12.3)

He had better yardage or TD numbers than in 7 of his past 11 seasons.

I've yet to hear a numbers-based argument that he took the year off. I'm listening if anyone wants to try.


I'll try to get more meaningful stats than what was provided above, but let me put it this way. Yes, statistically, he had a good year, better than many of his other years. But, that's not how I'm measuring his 2009 performance against. He could have had one of his best years , maybe the best of his career, if he had taken advantage of the opportunities that were available to him. Instead, he was happy with merely a "pretty good" year by his standards and a damn good one compared to the rest of the league, rather than a spectacular one in both categories.
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Re: Spygate revisted.

Postby benb18a » Thu Jan 28, 2010 3:23 pm

u_fig_eater wrote:
Kareighuis wrote:Can you imagine a 2009 offense with a Randy Moss that didn't lallygag so much?

I'd probably attribute that season to Brady getting actual weapons at WR in Moss and Welker. Moss started playing to his talent level and Welker was a virtual unknown. As much as I've bashed NE for the whole spygate thing, I'd say those two (not the coach, coordinators or Brady) were the reasons for that season.

Now, the lack of a running game and questions in the defense (especially in the secondary) have created a one-dimensional offense.


I started a whole thread on the Moss controversy...but I'm just going to say that he "lallygagged" his way to the 2nd-best fantasy season of any WR. Also:

He beat his career average for receiving yards / year (1264 > 1205)

He beat his career average for TDs / year (13 > 12.3)

He had better yardage or TD numbers than in 7 of his past 11 seasons.

I've yet to hear a numbers-based argument that he took the year off. I'm listening if anyone wants to try.


.....He was shut down by Darrelle Revis, not once, but TWICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-b
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Re: Spygate revisted.

Postby benb18a » Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:34 pm

All the garbage time, 4th down/4th quarter TDs in 2007 probably contributed to 7 of the extra 10 ppg, as Belichick decided to give everybody the middle finger by running up the score every chance he could possibly get. This resulted in records being broken left and right, and was most of the reason for the huge blip in scoring that year.
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Re: Spygate revisted.

Postby steelerfan513 » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:14 pm

Guys, as I said above, the Patriots almost certainly weren't cheating for the majority of their perfect 2007 regular season (by majority, I mean 15 games). They got caught in Week 1 and were punished before their Week 2 game. The initial argument doesn't make sense because they wouldn't cheat for the rest of that season AFTER GETTING CAUGHT, then arbitrarily decide to stop next season.

They had a record-breaking season mostly because they had one of the best passing offenses of all-time with an amazing quarterback and two of the NFL's best receivers who each offer a different skill set defenses had to deal with. Plus, as ben said, Belichick was willing to run up the score.
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Re: Spygate revisted.

Postby portisfan24 » Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:27 am

steelerfan513 wrote:Guys, as I said above, the Patriots almost certainly weren't cheating for the majority of their perfect 2007 regular season (by majority, I mean 15 games). They got caught in Week 1 and were punished before their Week 2 game. The initial argument doesn't make sense because they wouldn't cheat for the rest of that season AFTER GETTING CAUGHT, then arbitrarily decide to stop next season.

They had a record-breaking season mostly because they had one of the best passing offenses of all-time with an amazing quarterback and two of the NFL's best receivers who each offer a different skill set defenses had to deal with. Plus, as ben said, Belichick was willing to run up the score.


I'm thankful someone other than a Pats fan was able to find that massive hole in the logic of the argument.
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Re: Spygate revisted.

Postby biju » Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:52 am

portisfan24 wrote:
steelerfan513 wrote:Guys, as I said above, the Patriots almost certainly weren't cheating for the majority of their perfect 2007 regular season (by majority, I mean 15 games). They got caught in Week 1 and were punished before their Week 2 game. The initial argument doesn't make sense because they wouldn't cheat for the rest of that season AFTER GETTING CAUGHT, then arbitrarily decide to stop next season.

They had a record-breaking season mostly because they had one of the best passing offenses of all-time with an amazing quarterback and two of the NFL's best receivers who each offer a different skill set defenses had to deal with. Plus, as ben said, Belichick was willing to run up the score.


I'm thankful someone other than a Pats fan was able to find that massive hole in the logic of the argument.


Not that I need to get into this, but it's only a hole if the opposing teams' signals have changed from what the Pats expected. You might not be able to assume this was something easily changed mid-season, although I immediately admit I don't know whether this is an accurate statement or not. It could be easy enough too. All I'm saying is it's possible teams had to make this adjustment in the off season while the Pats had *years* worth of data on DCs.

Again, no idea how accurate this is--just trying to throw a possibility out there that matches what was seen. It probably has as much chance as Belichick having backup tapes in his garage, or alien mind control.
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