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Isn't Tory Holt Done? Not with the Pats...

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Re: Isn't Tory Holt Done? Not with the Pats...

Postby nsulham » Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:45 am

I think another point that is being missed is they had nothing at WR until Welker comes back outside of Moss and Edelman, and Edelman is much better suited for the slot IMO. Sam Aiken is NOT a WR you should be depending on and Brandon Tate isn't close to being ready yet. So now Hot slides in to the #2 slot for the first half of the season, moving Edelman back to the slot, until Welker comes back. Then you have four pretty good options in the pass game. Draft a Gresham/Gronkowski/Pitta at TE or trade for a Greg Olsen and now you've added another weapon.

And again, Holt is a guy who gets by on smarts, instincts and precision route-running. If he runs his routes to the T like he has his whole career, Brady will put it on him. Maybe he won't break away from people AFTC but he'll find ways to get open. He can't be much different than say a Mason, or a similar-type wily vet right? And I seem to recall Mason having a pretty respectable last few seasons. That's all they need from Holt. Moss will stretch the field, Edelman will be WW 2.0 until the real deal gets back and all Holt needs to do is work the intermediate routes and benefit from the looks he'll get with defenses focusing on Moss deep and Edelman underneath.
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Re: Isn't Tory Holt Done? Not with the Pats...

Postby mattb47 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:38 am

You still need to be able to create separation in your excellent route running to get open...it's not enough JUST to be a fantastic route runner as defenses can stay with the aging Holt at this stage in his career. Even without Welker starting the season and without any real other legitimate starting wideouts on the team, I don't see Holt being a big contributor. It's like the people who thought that Joey Galloway was still going to contribute for them last season...when you get in the mid-30s, your skills sharply decline and Holt has been on the decline already for a couple years now.

Also, don't forget that I think the chances are rather high that we see New England spend a somewhat early round draft pick on a WR...it's a HUGE need for them with Welker out for a while, Moss likely leaving after this season, and no other real legit WRs on their roster.
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Re: Isn't Tory Holt Done? Not with the Pats...

Postby JPeso » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:16 am

Nice signing by the Pats, and not for what Torry Ballgame will do on the field. As good as Randy is, he's not a teacher, he's not a guy to help the young guys out. I think Brandon Tate will gain a lot with Holt around.
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Re: Isn't Tory Holt Done? Not with the Pats...

Postby mattb47 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:55 am

JPeso wrote:Nice signing by the Pats, and not for what Torry Ballgame will do on the field. As good as Randy is, he's not a teacher, he's not a guy to help the young guys out. I think Brandon Tate will gain a lot with Holt around.


That is a good point actually...Holt is the ideal professional WR in his attitude, work ethic, and knowledge of the position so he does make for an ideal guy to help these younger WRs to improve. Not many WRs are as technically sound as Torry Holt has been for many years.
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Re: Isn't Tory Holt Done? Not with the Pats...

Postby nsulham » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:20 am

mattb47 wrote:You still need to be able to create separation in your excellent route running to get open...it's not enough JUST to be a fantastic route runner as defenses can stay with the aging Holt at this stage in his career. Even without Welker starting the season and without any real other legitimate starting wideouts on the team, I don't see Holt being a big contributor. It's like the people who thought that Joey Galloway was still going to contribute for them last season...when you get in the mid-30s, your skills sharply decline and Holt has been on the decline already for a couple years now.

Also, don't forget that I think the chances are rather high that we see New England spend a somewhat early round draft pick on a WR...it's a HUGE need for them with Welker out for a while, Moss likely leaving after this season, and no other real legit WRs on their roster.


Lol again with the Galloway comp. We're talking two completely different animals here. Galloway had straight-line speed but was NOT a good route-runner, which is why he and Brady clashed. Holt on the other hand doesn't have burner speed but his routes are precise and Brady will know where Holt will be. Look, if you want to be skeptical of Holt's impact I'm ok with that. But Holt and Galloway are two different styles that age differently.

I'll say it again. Holt had 51 grabs for 700+ yards, no touchdowns, last year in a run-first offense with a decent QB. Not bad for a guy who can't get seperation. They don't need him to be a whole lot more than that this year, sans the TD's would be nice. If he can bump the catches up to 65-70, the yards to 800-850 and score 3-5 TD's under Brady (which I don't think is totally unrealistic given what he did last year), given it's a one-year deal for LOW money, it'll work.

And I agree they'll use one of their #2's (if they keep all three) on a wideout. Maybe even the #22 overall if Dez falls. Draft a potential #2/3 WR this year, Moss' replacement with Oakland's #1 next year and they'll be in good shape for the future at WR.
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Re: Isn't Tory Holt Done? Not with the Pats...

Postby JPeso » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:39 am

nsulham wrote:And I agree they'll use one of their #2's (if they keep all three) on a wideout. Maybe even the #22 overall if Dez falls. Draft a potential #2/3 WR this year, Moss' replacement with Oakland's #1 next year and they'll be in good shape for the future at WR.

I'll be shocked if Dez is available, but Thomas is a very real (and competent) possibility.

You cannot complete this discussion about Patriots WRs without factoring in Brandon Tate. I know it's tough as we didn't see much, but he is a divisive special teams player whom I think develops into a viable threat as a WR2/3. Much like Derrick Mason, I think Tate works his way onto the field with KR and PR abilities, but then really commands playing time as a WR in time. It's too bad Tate wasn't healthy last year when Welker went down, or we'd be viewing Tate as a WR20-25 in dynasty terms right now. Good thing is you are now able to buy at WR50 or even waiver wire price and you could be sitting on something big.

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Re: Isn't Tory Holt Done? Not with the Pats...

Postby nsulham » Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:47 am

Honestly I'm not even factoring Tate much into the plans this year. For me, anything he gives them is gravy, be it in the kick return game or as a receiver. I think he's a big part in 2-3 years sure, which fits into your dynasty situation, but for this year anything he does on the field is icing.

If he helps them out in the return game that would be tremendous, certainly could use him there and if he brings anything to the table as a receiver that makes a Moss/Welker/Holt/Edelman/Rookie WR corps that much deeper.
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Re: Isn't Tory Holt Done? Not with the Pats...

Postby mattb47 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:15 am

nsulham wrote:
mattb47 wrote:You still need to be able to create separation in your excellent route running to get open...it's not enough JUST to be a fantastic route runner as defenses can stay with the aging Holt at this stage in his career. Even without Welker starting the season and without any real other legitimate starting wideouts on the team, I don't see Holt being a big contributor. It's like the people who thought that Joey Galloway was still going to contribute for them last season...when you get in the mid-30s, your skills sharply decline and Holt has been on the decline already for a couple years now.

Also, don't forget that I think the chances are rather high that we see New England spend a somewhat early round draft pick on a WR...it's a HUGE need for them with Welker out for a while, Moss likely leaving after this season, and no other real legit WRs on their roster.


Lol again with the Galloway comp. We're talking two completely different animals here. Galloway had straight-line speed but was NOT a good route-runner, which is why he and Brady clashed. Holt on the other hand doesn't have burner speed but his routes are precise and Brady will know where Holt will be. Look, if you want to be skeptical of Holt's impact I'm ok with that. But Holt and Galloway are two different styles that age differently.

I'll say it again. Holt had 51 grabs for 700+ yards, no touchdowns, last year in a run-first offense with a decent QB. Not bad for a guy who can't get seperation. They don't need him to be a whole lot more than that this year, sans the TD's would be nice. If he can bump the catches up to 65-70, the yards to 800-850 and score 3-5 TD's under Brady (which I don't think is totally unrealistic given what he did last year), given it's a one-year deal for LOW money, it'll work.

And I agree they'll use one of their #2's (if they keep all three) on a wideout. Maybe even the #22 overall if Dez falls. Draft a potential #2/3 WR this year, Moss' replacement with Oakland's #1 next year and they'll be in good shape for the future at WR.


(A) The Galloway comparison isn't in their style of play...it's in the level of actual contribution they are going to provide upon their signing with the Patriots. Galloway was downright worthless as he was aging, Holt probably will be less worthless but he's not even CLOSE to the same receiver he once was. The styles age differently, yes, but no matter what you STILL need to be able to get separation and Holt just doesn't have the same level of athleticism to do that anymore...simple as that.

(B) Holt is another season older than he was last year...at age 34 that makes a huge difference. I wouldn't expect the same level of production as he had last year either even on a more pass heavy team...he's been on a steady decline and that will only continue this year. If you're expecting him to be a legitimate threat opposite Moss this year, you're probably going to be disappointed with the results.
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Re: Isn't Tory Holt Done? Not with the Pats...

Postby joejlitz » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:33 am

mattb47 wrote:...Moss likely leaving after this season...

Is this speculation in print somewhere, or is this your own guess? If so, why do you see this? If I'm Moss, I'm staying with Brady and finishing my career on another SB run - even if it means a slight paycut. He is aging, isn't he?
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Re: Isn't Tory Holt Done? Not with the Pats...

Postby mattb47 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:44 am

joejlitz wrote:
mattb47 wrote:...Moss likely leaving after this season...

Is this speculation in print somewhere, or is this your own guess? If so, why do you see this? If I'm Moss, I'm staying with Brady and finishing my career on another SB run - even if it means a slight paycut. He is aging, isn't he?


Moss has said himself that he doesn't expect NE to try to re-sign him and they've made no effort so far to extend his contract at all...so it's not really up to Moss here.
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