knapplc wrote:I must have missed your angst over these churches, all of which are within a couple of blocks of Ground Zero:
St. Paul Chapel St Peter's Catholic Church Trinity Church John Street United Methodist Church Glad Tidings Tabernacle St Andrews Roman Catholic Church
$20 says you didn't even know these churches were there. And if you did know, it belies your statement that you "don't want a church there either."
Pay pal me $20. I don't feel we need a church on ground zero. We have plenty around it already. To build a islamic mosque on Ground Zero or even close would not be a good idea in my opinion for a couple of reasons. One it rubs salt in the wound due to Osama being on the far right side of the islamic religious spectrum. Osama reads the same exact book. Two for their own safety. I can say if I saw an islamic mosque that close to ground zero. I would likely piss on it then hold myself back from doing something destructive until I can think of a better plan. I think Osama would like you. He wouldn't like me very much.
The point is that this mosque will be no closer to Ground Zero than any of these churches, and you never raised a fuss about this. Having never raised a fuss, you're tacitly in approval of their presence, despite the fact that David Koresh reads (oops, read) the exact same book they teach about. So, it's OK for the church of David Koresh to be within two blocks of the WTC, but not for the mosque of Osama bin Laden. Tell me, how do you determine which radical fundamentalist's faith is OK?
I ask that because you say you would "piss" on a mosque, apparently because people who identify themselves as Muslim destroyed those buildings and killed those people. Would you also "piss" on a church? Timothy McVeigh, a Christian, destroyed the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. There aren't two standards here. You either lay blame on Christians for McVeigh's actions the same as you blame Muslims for bin Laden's, or you use your head to realize that neither McVeigh nor bin Laden represent either faith.
You continually look at this from a completely one-sided point of view. You turn a blind eye to the crimes committed by Christian radicals, yet denounce all of Islam for the actions of their radicals. That kind of unthinking fundamentalism is exactly what the Osama bin Ladens and the Timoth McVeighs of the world are looking for. You may think you're giving me a dig by saying "I think Osama would like you," but the sad truth is, your mind set is nearly identical to his - you just root for a different team.
Cowboys 4 life wrote:
knapplc wrote:Islam did not topple those towers and it's ridiculous to assert it did. Some whackjob with a band of followers knocked down the WTC, period. Islam is a religion of peace, just like Christianity. But, just like Christianity, Islam is often perverted to the purposes of bad men, and used as a tool to manipulate the weak. If you're going to blame 9/11 on Muslims than you're going to have to blame the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, a vast portion of World War II and any number of atrocities committed by missionaries on Christianity as well, making you and I as guilty - if not more guilty - than Muslims.
Never said Islam did. Just said a guy who believes in a radical form of Islam did. And don't forget the news catching muslims living in America pumping their fist when it happened. Do you really think the majority of people in these mosques were crying with us when the towers were hit? THEY WERE CHEERING! You want to appease people like this or just the other 80% of the muslim citizens that attend the same mosque/church he does? Putting a mosque of Osama's religion close to ground zero would piss alot of people off.
Yes, you did say that Islam toppled those buildings. I even used your phrases when I responded so you would see the issue. Here's what you said,"Not to mention the relgion that mosque represents [Islam] happens to be the same religion [Islam] that toppled the towers." (emphasis mine) Again, you have trouble separating the actions of a fringe from the intent of the main. Whether that's by inability or intent doesn't matter, because it's led you to the point where you're, apparently, willing to take overt action "I would likely piss on [the mosque]..." and you would, by your own words, need to restrain yourself from something even worse.
This form of intolerance disgusts me. It is the polar opposite of what this country stands for. It is the very reason I sit at my drudge's job whose bureaucratic BS I hate simply so I can, on the rare occasion, put the kibosh on the kind of thinking you're displaying here.
America is founded on, among other things, the principle of freedom of religion. We believe that no man should be persecuted for his belief in his god, or belief in no god. We believe that every man should be able to worship a god or not worship a god in equal peace. The very first words of the very first Amendment to the U.S. Constitution puts paid to your whole argument: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Call me crazy, but I'm going to throw my hat in with the Constitution on this debate.
The real question is, why wouldn't you?
Cowboys 4 life wrote:
knapplc wrote:I take no responsibility for the atrocities committed in the name of Christianity. David Koresh and all his ilk may say they represent Christianity, but they don't, at least not the Christianity I believe in. Same goes for the Westboro Baptist Church "Christians" who protest at the funerals of soldiers. Do you really think all of Christendom is to blame for their behavior? Really?
Me neither. The Bible warns me of stuff like this. Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
The Quran doesn't warn them of people like bin laden.
Errr..... yeah it does. I take it you've never read the Quran, or even attempted to understand it? The Quran speaks of Dajjal (liars) - false prophets whose intent is to lead the people of Islam astray. They are equivalent to the Anti-Christ in Christian theology, and a simple google search could have told you that.
That's what's most sad about your stance here - freedom from the kind of bigotry you're displaying is just a few keywords away, yet you seem unwilling to even try. You link to pictures of 9/11 and right-wing websites focusing on hysteria and fear-mongering as if these things were directly related to a particular mosque on a particular street. They're not, any more than Trinity Church is directly related to images of the Murrah Building's destruction.
Cowboys 4 life wrote:
knapplc wrote:Please show me where "Islam" declared war on us. Osama bin Laden doesn't represent Islam any more than Jim Jones represented Christianity. If some fringe, radical "Christian" declares war on Brazil, are you going to go down to Rio to fight? Again, think this through before you go off like this. It's silly.
I know you read left side news but this will have to work.
You "know" I read left side news? What is left side news? For that matter, what news sources do I read? How would you know that? That's nearly as funny as the fact that you quoted a source called "right side news" whose headline - but no source in the "article" - states that Islam has declared war on America. This website is rank propaganda of the most ignorant form, yet you use it to bolster your argument and, apparently, expect to be taken seriously. I do not, any more than if you had quoted The Onion.
Cowboys 4 life wrote:
knapplc wrote:Nope, a mosque near Ground Zero doesn't bug me in the least, because, as stated, I'm intelligent enough to separate radicalism from Islam. When you focus on hysteria and ignore facts, then sure, it's easy to be pissed about things like this. But when you free your mind from fear-based thinking, you can begin to reason these things out, and realize that not all of Islam is our enemy, and in fact only a tiny portion is, and that judging a vast group on the actions of a tiny fraction is wrong. And it's entirely against what America stands for.
Some of this I can agree with. Not all of Islam are radicals. But if you would offer your service and single the radicals out to me I'd really appreciate it. They will likely be blending in so just start at one of these mosques.
Freedom of religion (a Constitutionally protected ideal, in case you've forgotten) precludes this kind of "sorting out." If we're to live in a free society, a society free for all men (again, a basic tenet of our country as stated in the Declaration of Independence, in case you weren't aware), we cannot remove rights from some because "they" are different from "us." We cannot look askance at anyone who identifies themselves with a particular group, because to do so prevents them from free exercise of "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." It is shocking to me that you have been so utterly failed by our education system, or that you have chosen willingly to ignore what you were taught, that you would even consider something like sorting out the bad guys.
You're being sold a bill of goods for which you have no use. You're being told by people who want your vote that Islam is your enemy. You're being told by people who want you to believe their particular ideology that you have something to fear, and they're telling you that because once they make you afraid of it you're more likely to listen to their solution on how to fight it. You're buying what they're selling because you're failing to think in basic critical terms about what they're saying. You're keeping your eyes and ears glued to their radio shows, their TV shows, their websites, and their newspaper articles; you're doing exactly what they want you to do, and they're getting wealthy off of you and others like you, and they're remaining in power all the while.
knapplc wrote:Islam did not topple those towers and it's ridiculous to assert it did. Some whackjob with a band of followers knocked down the WTC, period. Islam is a religion of peace, just like Christianity. But, just like Christianity, Islam is often perverted to the purposes of bad men, and used as a tool to manipulate the weak. If you're going to blame 9/11 on Muslims than you're going to have to blame the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, a vast portion of World War II and any number of atrocities committed by missionaries on Christianity as well, making you and I as guilty - if not more guilty - than Muslims.
Knapp,
That is where you are very very wrong. Whether we like it or not, Islam IS a violent religion. One of the five pillars of it is Jihad, or war on the non believers and Mohammad was as violent as they came. This does reflect badly on Islam because IT'S A BAD THING. Granted, not every Muslim is a violent Jihadist. I know plenty of Muslims who disapprove of the violent form of Jihad, just like many of us Christians disapprove of the atrocities committed by our ancestors during the Inquisition, during the crusades, and more. (such muslims often subscribe to the much less known form of Jihad that is a war on personal sin. It's a newer idea though) Apologies have been made to the injured parties in the past, and it never excuses it, but at least there was a try! Do we see the Islamic community at large apologizing for what their crimes against humanity? Nope. That's a problem in my eyes. It's why the truest and radical form of Islam is such a threat to this world at whole. I realize that we gotta walk a line of sanity as civilized people, but look what tolerance does in Europe. Can we at least take a stand against little things like this?
Mosque at Ground Zero. It boils my blood. Anyways. How about that Sarah Palin?
Why should Islam as a body apologize for 9/11? I don't seem to recall Christianity apologizing for the Murrah bombing in Oklahoma City. Since when does the overall body need to apologize for the actions of a few, especially those few whose behavior is so diametrically opposed to their belief? Think about what you're saying here, because rationally it makes no sense. Here, let me help you:
If I burn down my neighbor's house and say, "I did this in the name of m16a," are you going to feel responsible? Are you going to apologize to him for it? Of course not. You don't advocate such acts, you don't believe in such things, and anyone who thought rationally about the situation would realize I wasn't doing it in your name, they'd realize I'm some crackpot with my own agenda hiding behind your name.
If you truly have Muslim friends, please talk to them about jihad again, because your understanding of it is lacking. Jihad is a struggle, pure and simple. It is most often ascribed to an internal struggle of faith, or a struggle against sin, but it can be used to describe other things, including familial strife, strife between religious sects, and a struggle against those who oppose Islam. It encompasses many things, but it is not inherently violent. Again, radicals can pervert the meaning of jihad, but that doesn't mean their interpretation is accurate.
Really, really, really go educate yourself on Islam. It is as violent as Christianity, as peaceful as Christianity.
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You "know" I read left side news? What is left side news? For that matter, what news sources do I read? How would you know that? That's nearly as funny as the fact that you quoted a source called "right side news" whose headline - but no source in the "article" - states that Islam has declared war on America. This website is rank propaganda of the most ignorant form, yet you use it to bolster your argument and, apparently, expect to be taken seriously. I do not, any more than if you had quoted The Onion. 
