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Somebody explain to me why non-PPR still exists?

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Re: Somebody explain to me why non-PPR still exists?

Postby Kareighuis » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:02 am

I was thinking about making a post earlier today on the exact OPPOSITE view.

What's the appeal of PPR?

I think it unnaturally inflates possession WRs. Catch the ball and then get immediately tackled? Good job- here's a point. ;-D :-P Two catches for 5 yards can result in 2 points- completely out of touch with the potential game situation, if the second was on 3rd and 8. A player should be rewarded for being athletic/savvy enough to elude that first tackle. I think, if you're gonna go this route, one option would be the WR could only get a point for catching if he gets a certain number of yards-after-the-catch. Say, 5YAC or so. Or, perhaps only catches that result in a 1st down.

I like how PPR rewards RBs who are multidimensional- guys who can plow between the tackles or catch swings outta the backfield. Similarly, I think WRs (and other players in general) who are so explosive the team tries all sorts of formations to get the ball in their hands in any way possible-
WRs swinging from one side to the other and taking the pitch;
RBs passing, like LT in years past or Miami recently;
QBs catching, like Thigpen 2 years ago or Flacco last year.

I understand the urge to reduce the emphasis of one-dimensional players- whether they be plodding possession wideouts or stone-handed RBs. I think such efforts should be channeled into developing a scoring system appropriately valuing unusual plays by giving the players who do them a more favorable formula than the norm.
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Re: Somebody explain to me why non-PPR still exists?

Postby LS2throwed » Mon Aug 16, 2010 12:07 am

Only non ppr leagues I know are dynasties that have been non ppr for leagues. I'm only in 1 of those, and it's hard to change a big rule like that since guys start to tailor their teams towards the rules so changing would have to be unanimous or close to it. I really don't prefer non ppr at all, love ppr, it's a refreshing change that has gotten bigger over the years.


In fact I took advantage of the scoring system in ppr that favors WR's, and all the RBBC's that we have now, and was able to pull this type of roster in my 12 man ppr money redraft league that is highly competitive and I do with the same guys for years:


Andre Johnson
Miles Austin
Greg Jennings
Dallas Clark
Matt Schaub
Javhid Best
Felix Jones
Arian Foster



I handcuffed the RB's I got with Slaton, Kevin Smith, and Tashard Choice all with late round picks to try and sure up those positions 1 way or another, and feel like I got elite players at all my other key positions. This was the very first draft I've ever tried this out, but being that I did so many mock drafts I felt there was a good chance at going three WR's, TE, and QB as a start to land top players, and still have a bunch of RB value left to roll with.


I wouldn't do this in ppr, but I feel like it gives me some new options, also makes the scores more higher scoring and that's always fun because that's what it's all about. :-b
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Re: Somebody explain to me why non-PPR still exists?

Postby DemonDeacon » Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:14 am

im a full supporter or PPR leagues and BIG PLAY LEAGUES!!! my main is a big play league that looks like this....

1 PPR
1pt per 10 yrds rushing/receiving
5pt bonus for 100yds rushing/receiving
5pt bonus for 200yds rushing/receiving

1pt per 25 yds passing
5pt bonus for 250yds passing (i think it should be moved to 300)
5pt bonus for 400yds passing
5pt bonus for 500yds passing

6pt td 1-9yds
9pt td 10-39yds
12pt td 40+yds

EXAMPLE: Moss catches a 58yd TD Pass. That one play gets 1 pt for the catch, 5 pts for the yds and 12pts for the TD giving him 18pts on one play. on the next series he gets 2 catches for 43 yds. His total would equal 29. because of the 1pt per 10 yds and the 5pt bonus for reaching 100yds.

this is my personal FAVORITE scoring system. and i think it should be twinked even further giving bonuses for first downs as well as giving bonuses to RBs who get over 100 total yds but not over 100yds in rec/rushing. EX: 60yds rush and 40yds rec should get the 5 pt bonus as well. but that depends if the players in the league can deal with it. it def makes my standard scoring league feel bland...

maybe now ppl will understand why im so in love with big play makers :)

EDIT: Ive also heard of double points leagues. Where players get 2x the pts for doing a non position specific play. EX: RB catches ball for 20 yds. instead of getting 2 pts he gets 4 for the rec yds. Or QB rushes for 40 yds, gets 8pts instead of 4. I think 2x might be a bit excessive for some but i could def see 150% being legit. get 1.5 pts for a 30 yd run for a qb. etc etc.
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Re: Somebody explain to me why non-PPR still exists?

Postby murphysxm » Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:47 am

Lots to comment on, but the big thing I like about PPR that is not addressed in standard scoring is say a Wes Welker. He is the glue of that offense. A 12 catch game for 70 yards is a lot more valuable than 1 catch for a 4 yard TD. PPR levels the field amongst positions and rewards all players, not just the one who scores the TD.

I HATE bonus points for long TD's. It still counts as 6 points on the scoreboard.

Also the reasion AJ is going 7ish in standard leagues is because there is so many RBBC and question mark at RB that he is a safer pick. Real football is evolving away from bell cow RB's, just like fantasy is evolving into PPR focused.
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Re: Somebody explain to me why non-PPR still exists?

Postby shawngee03 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:04 am

0.5 PPR is the way to go

i like some form of PPR bc i hate winning a matchup 65-50. for some reason i just like scoring more points.....prolly similar to why americans hate soccer...i want to see some scoring
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Re: Somebody explain to me why non-PPR still exists?

Postby Carnac » Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:44 am

I play both and enjoy both.

Main league is high scoring with .5 PPR, .3 PRush att., .5 per completion. 5 pt. bonuses at designated yards and return yards.

Other long term league is basic scoring, no PPR and no bonuses.

Both are fun, just different. And you draft differently for each one.

Don't know why you can't enjoy either.
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Re: Somebody explain to me why non-PPR still exists?

Postby Kareighuis » Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:39 pm

murphysxm wrote:Lots to comment on, but the big thing I like about PPR that is not addressed in standard scoring is say a Wes Welker. He is the glue of that offense. A 12 catch game for 70 yards is a lot more valuable than 1 catch for a 4 yard TD. PPR levels the field amongst positions and rewards all players, not just the one who scores the TD.

I HATE bonus points for long TD's. It still counts as 6 points on the scoreboard.

Also the reasion AJ is going 7ish in standard leagues is because there is so many RBBC and question mark at RB that he is a safer pick. Real football is evolving away from bell cow RB's, just like fantasy is evolving into PPR focused.


Alot for me to comment on here-

Yes, in non-PPR, a 4-yd TD is worth less than 70 yards receiving. But in the end, what matters is scoring- TDs, whatever. PPR scoring takes away the focus on the purpose of the game and gives you points for things that were going to happen anyway.

But I can see the logic to rewarding a player (and their team) for being so undefendable that you want to reward them for racking up 12 receptions, like last year, when Marshall got 20 in a game.

And I think that's the key- building thresholds into the scoring system so that good performances (like 12 catches for 70 yards) are rewarded. To give a counter-example- in football terms, 6 receptions for 60 yards is worth less than 3 for 25 and a TD. Scoring is what really matters, and PPR devalues the players who do what needs to be done by overvaluing the guys who do what gets done anyway. Any WR would give up their 6 receptions that day to have actually scored a TD for their team.

Now, if you want to account for Welker-type performances, where he's ripping the defense, that's cool- put in a bonus threshold for 5 receptions, or 10, or both- give them 2 points for getting to 5, another 3 points for getting to 10. Or, give a smaller bonus (less than a point) for each reception over 3, or 5, or whatever.

The point would be to reward a player for beating a defense, over and above the norm- kinda like getting bonus points in combat games for pulling off long combo attacks. It isn't just the fact that the player is beating the defense, it's the psychological aspect of "We can't cover him;" and "I'm unstoppable!" Similarly, accuately scored, points for long TDs can have their place. Just like PPR, though, many leagues that implement them overvalue them. A 40-yarder isn't that impressive. However, an 80 yard TD that was 60 yards primarily made by the receiver after the catch should give a bonus to the WR, not the QB, since they did most of the work eluding/outspeeding the defense. Conversely, a seventy yard TD that was 50 yards pre-YAC should heavily favor the QB, since it's them who did most of the work, moving the safety around, hiding the ball on a fake handoff, whatever.


I can understand the thought-process behind implementing PPR, I just think people get out of hand with it. In real football, the purpose is scoring. If you want to create a scoring system that rewards them for consistently beating the defense, fine- reward them for first downs (which quite probably is the 2nd-most important positive thing a team can do); put in thresholds for exceeding a certain number of receptions. While your doing all this, add in scoring rules that accurately reflect the psychological aspect of real NFL games- don't devalue TDs, but add in little tricks that reflect the impact of craziness/multidimensionality of Wildcat plays, or receivers running end-arounds. Yes, real football is evolving away from bell cow RB's- and fantasy football is reflecting that trend, as you mentioned that AJ is going 7ish in standard leagues is because there is so many RBBC and question mark at RB that he is a safer pick. PPR is unnecessary for fantasy football to do that.
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Re: Somebody explain to me why non-PPR still exists?

Postby CRob44 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:39 pm

this must be a joke question, maybe because it gives too many pts to wr . I think 1 ppr is toomuch, it should be .50
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Re: Somebody explain to me why non-PPR still exists?

Postby dgan » Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:47 pm

I think this should be a poll, because I doubt any persuasion is going to happen here. So, with that in mind, I'll simply state which side of the argument I fall on and why: PPR is an artificial stat. In and of itself, it has no more value than an incompletion, a carry, or a TV timeout. The only thing that matters is the yardage gained DUE to the catch. So, that is why you give points for receiving yardage.

If you wish to artificially create more of a balance in the value between RB and WR, then either start an additional WR or increase the amount of points given for receiving yards over rushing yards. Instead of giving 0.5 PPR, why not simply create a 1 pt for every 5 yds rcvng and 1 pt for every 10 yds rushing. That accomplishes essentially the same thing without the confusing aspect of a WR getting points for getting tackled at the LOS on a WR screen.

To each their own - I don't care. But something seems detached from the actual game when, for example, you are giving additional points to RBs tackled for a loss on a swing pass, but losing points when that same play was ruled a lateral.

Furthermore, I am confused every time I hear "RBs are way too valuable in non-PPR". Why does no one point to the clear devaluation of QBs in just about any fantasy format? If you really want to equal the value of the positions, you should do something with QB rather than WR. When players can draft 2 RBs, 3 WRs, and a TE, and with their 7th round pick still get the 9th rated QB in the league, something is wrong.

That is why in our league, our flex position can start QB/RB/WR/TE. QBs generally score more points than 3rd RBs or WRs, so you want to start a second QB there if you can. However, everyone knows how an injury at QB can kill a fantasy team (especially in a 2QB league), so by simply adding it into the flex options, you are not FORCED to start a second QB. This does a beautiful job of decreasing the seperation of value between the positions. Once you get past those first 5-8 RBs, it is all wide open and you can get good value in a lot of different areas.

So, I don't buy PPR as a "fix" to the "problems" of fantasy football. I actually think it is simply a lazy way to add some additional calculations to your projections and to create higher scores - it doesn't add more strategy. In fact, I think PPR was invented by die-hards as a way to seperate themselves from the cheat sheet drafters who didn't take those calculations into account. Now that you can get PPR rankings from anywhere, I don't think that advantage is there anymore, so they'll probably be creating some other artificial stat they want to give credit for.
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Re: Somebody explain to me why non-PPR still exists?

Postby 011472 » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:48 pm

Azrael wrote:Somebody explain to me why we still have drafts and everyone hasn't moved onto an auction already. They're so much more fun.


+1. I can't imagine going back to snake drafts. Way more flexibility and skill involved in auctions in my opinion.
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