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Hines Ward = 1st ballot HOF?

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Re: Hines Ward = 1st ballot HOF?

Postby Cowboys 4 life » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:51 am

bungle613 wrote:
Munboy wrote:I.......don't understand you guys' thinking. He's been in the league the same amount of time as Randy Moss (13 years). He came into the league as the jack of all trades, master of none. He took a couple years to learn the WR position. Moss came into the league as "The Freak"....And yet, he has comparable numbers to Moss. TO's been in the league 2 years longer and Ward has comparable numbers. Plus, he did what these two don't do for his entire career... Block. I understand the thinking that he might not be a first ballot, but not at all? That I don't understand. In the end of his career, he'll be AT LEAST in the top 10 of the three major statistical categories. He could end up in the top 5 if he remains productive the next 2 years. Doesn't belong in the HOF? Seriously?

But I digress....


Along with everyone else...love the guy. He loves football and I appreciate that. First ballot... nope. Chris Carter didn't get in on the first ballot. You can only compare Ward statistically to Moss and Owens in receptions. HE is well behind in yards and touchdowns over roughly the same playing time. It's unfortunate that so much is placed on stats because if you place as much emphasis on a great statistics guy and how he plays hte game then Ward would get my vote ahead of Moss or Owens.

Was he is the top 100 greatest players? oh... and how the hell was John Randle NOT on that list!!!


I agree with Bungle here. Not on the first ballot but should definately be in the HOF. The guys is downright nasty and does all the things those pre madonas listed above wont do. I have never seen a WR block like this guy and do the little things. As mentioned though this is purely about stats not the small stuff or how much you did for the team. HOF isn't a blue collar award. Its for those who are flashy and put up catches, yds, and td's.
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Re: Hines Ward = 1st ballot HOF?

Postby ravendan » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:27 pm

Hines Ward is absolutely a first ballot hall of famer, and the best wide receiver since Jerry Rice. Football is not the same as Baseball, it is NOT all about the numbers, your total contribution is far more important and has been stated in depth already. If it is all about the numbers, then why is John Elway always rated above Dan Marino as the best QB's to play? Moss and TO have done just as much to prevent their teams from winning as help them, neither of them should be first ballot, and possibly not included, especially Moss.
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Re: Hines Ward = 1st ballot HOF?

Postby Munboy » Wed May 25, 2011 1:33 pm

Now that he's won DWTS, he's a sure fire 1st ballot HOF, right? :-b

Kidding.

But I was cruising nfl.com and they had this interesting chart/article.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2011/05/25/data-po ... _spotlight

It's interesting the top two players on that chart are WRs you never hear about except in PPR leagues. In the real game of football, they are overlooked.
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Re: Hines Ward = 1st ballot HOF?

Postby moochman » Sun May 29, 2011 8:57 pm

Do I think Ward will be a first ballot HOFer? Yes.
Do I think Ward deserves to be a first ballot HOFer? No way.
In fact, I am not that sure he should even make the HOF. He just doesn't pass the eye test. Has he put up shocking statistics? No. Has he produced in the upper tier for season upon season? No. Has he been a highlight reel regular through out his career? No. Has he done anything to leave a lasting mark on the WR position, or to even suggest that he was that much better than his peers? No, and no. So really, tell me what he did that was HOF worthy? Being on Championship teams? Does that mean Santonio Holmes should be in the hall? Fact is that, while being a very good top-end WR for years, Hines has done nothing to make anyone think he was best in class. Oh wait, he blocks. Wow, I'll alert Canton.
The HOF should be reserved for the game changers. Hines just doesn't cut the mustard.
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Re: Hines Ward = 1st ballot HOF?

Postby Munboy » Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:41 pm

moochman wrote:Do I think Ward will be a first ballot HOFer? Yes.
Do I think Ward deserves to be a first ballot HOFer? No way.
In fact, I am not that sure he should even make the HOF. He just doesn't pass the eye test. Has he put up shocking statistics? No. Has he produced in the upper tier for season upon season? No. Has he been a highlight reel regular through out his career? No. Has he done anything to leave a lasting mark on the WR position, or to even suggest that he was that much better than his peers? No, and no. So really, tell me what he did that was HOF worthy? Being on Championship teams? Does that mean Santonio Holmes should be in the hall? Fact is that, while being a very good top-end WR for years, Hines has done nothing to make anyone think he was best in class. Oh wait, he blocks. Wow, I'll alert Canton.
The HOF should be reserved for the game changers. Hines just doesn't cut the mustard.


Has he put up shocking statistics?
Yes. By the time he's done, he'll be in the top 5-10 OF ALL TIME in most major WR categories. Not to mention he owns EVERY steelers' WR record...yes over HOFs Swan and Stallworth.

Has he produced upper tier season after season?
Yes. He's stayed relatively healthy. In fact, he was the Steelers' Iron man up until last season I believe. He has more catches than any other receiver over the past 10 years. That is production my friend.

Does he have a highlight reel?
Why, yes he does. He's had some of the surest hands in the league. He makes the tough catches and who forget him running away from defenders with just one shoe?

So tell you what makes him an HOF? Look up there ^^^^^^
He has more catches than anyone in the past 10 years (playing most of his career in a run first offense). He will finish in the top 10 of all time in most WR categories. Yes he has a couple rings on his fingers. Yes he has an SB MVP trophy. An oh yea, he's the best blocking WR of all time as well.

Honestly, you're logic is flawed at best. You start your argument with statistics and yet, Ward is statistically one of the best in his era.
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Re: Hines Ward = 1st ballot HOF?

Postby bungle613 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 11:29 pm

Stats will not be what get Ward into the Hall. When he goes it will be because his stats were good enough but he played like a star. What real football fans would call a star.

I hate using Owens as he is a tool but here is a comparison over the last 10 years.

Ward

Catches - 830
yards - 10146
td's - 72


Owens

Catches - 759
yards - 11176
td's - 110

Owens also did it in 11 less games. Reggie Wayne will also likely be better statistically over 10 years once his rookie season is not counted which will be this year. Being healthy and a good producer is no first ballot imo. HOF... yes. Get him one more title and maybe that would move him closer to a first year ballot.
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Re: Hines Ward = 1st ballot HOF?

Postby LS2throwed » Tue Jun 07, 2011 12:50 am

Heinz Ward as a 1st ballot HOF is laughable to me. Have you guys noticed some of the WR's who are still waiting to get into the HOF? Andre Reed, Tim Brown, Cris Carter, I can probably think of more if I tried. Heinz Ward had one season over 1200 yards and double digit TD's 3 times. I can think of a ton of WR's who are playing right now who have already eclipsed those marks. Cris Carter hasn't even made the finalist two years in a row. Carter had 6 seasons of double digit TD's, and two more with 9. He had 122 catches in back to back seasons.


I know stats cannot be the be all, end all of the conversation. Especially considering Ward plays in the cold, snow, and on a running team so he wouldn't compare with a WR in the dome on a passing team. That said, 1st ballot? I don't think some people realize the log jam of players trying to get in let alone WR. Some truly elite WR's are still waiting.


Has anyone ever felt Heinz Ward was the best WR in the league at any given time? How about top 5 even? I don't think at any point in his career anyone would have even tried 2 make that argument. He's been a model of consistency, he hasn't gotten hurt, he's been reliable, tough, makes big plays in crunch time, just an all around great player. But he's not HOF material. Total stats don't put a guy in IMO.


Corey Dillon has more rushing yards then OJ Simpson and Earl Campbell, we all know who is HOF material and who just was a steady solid player that compiled yardage year after year.
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Re: Hines Ward = 1st ballot HOF?

Postby moochman » Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:57 pm

Munboy wrote:
moochman wrote:Do I think Ward will be a first ballot HOFer? Yes.
Do I think Ward deserves to be a first ballot HOFer? No way.
In fact, I am not that sure he should even make the HOF. He just doesn't pass the eye test. Has he put up shocking statistics? No. Has he produced in the upper tier for season upon season? No. Has he been a highlight reel regular through out his career? No. Has he done anything to leave a lasting mark on the WR position, or to even suggest that he was that much better than his peers? No, and no. So really, tell me what he did that was HOF worthy? Being on Championship teams? Does that mean Santonio Holmes should be in the hall? Fact is that, while being a very good top-end WR for years, Hines has done nothing to make anyone think he was best in class. Oh wait, he blocks. Wow, I'll alert Canton.
The HOF should be reserved for the game changers. Hines just doesn't cut the mustard.


Has he put up shocking statistics?
Yes. By the time he's done, he'll be in the top 5-10 OF ALL TIME in most major WR categories. Not to mention he owns EVERY steelers' WR record...yes over HOFs Swan and Stallworth.

Has he produced upper tier season after season?
Yes. He's stayed relatively healthy. In fact, he was the Steelers' Iron man up until last season I believe. He has more catches than any other receiver over the past 10 years. That is production my friend.

Does he have a highlight reel?
Why, yes he does. He's had some of the surest hands in the league. He makes the tough catches and who forget him running away from defenders with just one shoe?

So tell you what makes him an HOF? Look up there ^^^^^^
He has more catches than anyone in the past 10 years (playing most of his career in a run first offense). He will finish in the top 10 of all time in most WR categories. Yes he has a couple rings on his fingers. Yes he has an SB MVP trophy. An oh yea, he's the best blocking WR of all time as well.

Honestly, you're logic is flawed at best. You start your argument with statistics and yet, Ward is statistically one of the best in his era.


Okay, my logic is flawed. Flawed because I don't live in the past, and neither does Hines. Swan did though, and from what I've heard, read, and looked up, Lynn Swan was a much better WR than Ward. No slight against Ward, Swan is a HOFer, he should be much better than most WRs. Tell me about my flawed logic, maybe you simply misunderstood my point. When I say shocking statistics I don't mean those compiled while you have an excellent journeyman (okay, taking a shot there lol) WR that was a consistant, reliable, and very capable goto player. Shocking stats are those you put up during those HOF defining seasons during your career. They set you aside from your peers and demonstrate an overwhelming impact you had for those years. The lack of such make Ward a great, but not HOF worthy WR.
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Re: Hines Ward = 1st ballot HOF?

Postby biju » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:57 pm

Munboy wrote:
moochman wrote:Do I think Ward will be a first ballot HOFer? Yes.
Do I think Ward deserves to be a first ballot HOFer? No way.
In fact, I am not that sure he should even make the HOF. He just doesn't pass the eye test. Has he put up shocking statistics? No. Has he produced in the upper tier for season upon season? No. Has he been a highlight reel regular through out his career? No. Has he done anything to leave a lasting mark on the WR position, or to even suggest that he was that much better than his peers? No, and no. So really, tell me what he did that was HOF worthy? Being on Championship teams? Does that mean Santonio Holmes should be in the hall? Fact is that, while being a very good top-end WR for years, Hines has done nothing to make anyone think he was best in class. Oh wait, he blocks. Wow, I'll alert Canton.
The HOF should be reserved for the game changers. Hines just doesn't cut the mustard.


Has he put up shocking statistics?
Yes. By the time he's done, he'll be in the top 5-10 OF ALL TIME in most major WR categories. Not to mention he owns EVERY steelers' WR record...yes over HOFs Swan and Stallworth.

Has he produced upper tier season after season?
Yes. He's stayed relatively healthy. In fact, he was the Steelers' Iron man up until last season I believe. He has more catches than any other receiver over the past 10 years. That is production my friend.

Does he have a highlight reel?
Why, yes he does. He's had some of the surest hands in the league. He makes the tough catches and who forget him running away from defenders with just one shoe?

So tell you what makes him an HOF? Look up there ^^^^^^
He has more catches than anyone in the past 10 years (playing most of his career in a run first offense). He will finish in the top 10 of all time in most WR categories. Yes he has a couple rings on his fingers. Yes he has an SB MVP trophy. An oh yea, he's the best blocking WR of all time as well.

Honestly, you're logic is flawed at best. You start your argument with statistics and yet, Ward is statistically one of the best in his era.


I personally am not a fan of using Lynn Swann and John Stallworth's stats for HOF worthiness for one reason: Different eras. If you compare their stats alone to any WR from today who has plaed 8+ seasons you'll likely have them beat. For example:

Lynn Swann:
Receptions: 336
Yards: 5462
TDs: 51

John Stallworth:
Receptions: 537
Yards: 8723
TDs: 63

Darrell Jackson
Receptions: 499
Yards: 7132
TDs: 51

Does Darrell Jackson belong in the HOF? Hell no and I would personally protest, just as you would.

Derrick Mason:
Receptions: 924
Yards: 11,891
TDs: 66

Hall worthy? No, although he certainly beats out both Swann and Stallworth too.

See, it's really not applicable to either of these guys. Just because they were on some prolific offenses and had longevity doesn't mean they belong in the HOF. Hines Ward will probably get in, but mostly for non-stat reasons such as rings, blocking, being a "non-football" minority, etc.
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Re: Hines Ward = 1st ballot HOF?

Postby joejlitz » Sat Jun 11, 2011 6:29 pm

biju wrote: Hines Ward will probably get in, but mostly for non-stat reasons such as rings, blocking, being a "non-football" minority, etc.

The only negative I see on Ward is that I don't recall a year where he was considered the #1,2,3 receiver in the NFL. But make no mistake, Ward will definitely get in. His stats make him a consideration and his Super Bowl MVP cements it (for me, if I was a voter). Longevity does count when combined with, on average, solid to spectacular play.

And to be honest, politics count too. Dan Rooney has a ton of influence and respect in this league (heck! He's the U.S. ambassador to Ireland!). And Ward is extremely likable.

There are a lot more things that count than overall stats (though Ward certainly has them).

EDIT: Read the posts out of order and just came to this one, written by Dr. Pete Dog, Super Genius.
petedog9 wrote:
When one is considerred for the HOF,there is more then just stats that go into play. (See Chris Carter)
Hines Ward: 925 catches for 11322 yards and 85 TDs, 2SB rings, SB MVP , Career on one team, Considerred best blocking WR of all time, Korean born player, appointed to President's Advisory Commission on Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders

These are all things that will go into the equation when they vote upon who gets in and who doesnt. Stats alone will not be the reason you get in or dont. There are many players with deserving stats who are currently not in the hall..There is always a level of politics and public perception as well... Sometimes that works for a player, other times against. You might laugh at the Korean part and the Presidental personally appointing him to the committe part but it will play a role.


moochman wrote:The HOF should be reserved for the game changers. Hines just doesn't cut the mustard.

If LeBron sucks because he can't perform in the 4th quarter of these NBA Finals, than Ward is the man for winning a Super Bowl MVP. There's a long discussion there so everyone understands that I don't necessarily believe either stance absolutely - but there's truth in it.
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