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The CBA Thread

Postby scottaa1 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:27 pm

It's time to start this discussion. Just read an article about Gooddell saying he'll reduce his salary to one dollar. Seems as good a reason as any to start a thread on what could have catastrophic results to football and our beloved fantasy football.
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Chief NFL negotiator Jeff Pash also will slash his compensation to $1, and Goodell will hold back bonuses for league officials until April.

At that time, portions of bonuses will be held in reserve (10% for VPs, 25% for senior VPs, and 35% for executive VPs), and those balances won't be paid until a new collective bargaining agreement is reached


Goodell and NFLPA leader DeMaurice Smith met last week.

But the sides have engaged in a battle of rhetoric in recent weeks. Most recently, Goodell refuted Smith's message to players that they were "at war" with the league over their collective financial future.


I'm sure Gooddell and his top execs can afford it. What is going to matter is when those players realize their paychecks will end. And won't someone think about the fans?? And the people who make a living off concessions in the stadiums, the parking lots, the local beer stores?
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Re: The CBA Thread

Postby Dawinner127 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:41 pm

Please have a season next year. Just get it done!
A win next week and all is forgotten.
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Re: The CBA Thread

Postby moochman » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:06 pm

scottaa1 wrote:I'm sure Gooddell and his top execs can afford it. What is going to matter is when those players realize their paychecks will end. And won't someone think about the fans?? And the people who make a living off concessions in the stadiums, the parking lots, the local beer stores?


Billionaire owners and their lackeys care only for trying to make more millions, they care not about the players or the fans. I have never heard of a business model that insists it must take money away from the people (players) who create the product, while they are currently making wild profits.

Whether you do what's right or wrong in anyone's mind, get this thing settled. Please make sure we have a season next year. To lose a season so that people who have more money than they could reasonably need could make more could push me to seriously question my dedication to this league. Get 'er done.
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Re: The CBA Thread

Postby biju » Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:53 pm

Snipped:

moochman wrote:I have never heard of a business model that insists it must take money away from the people (players) who create the product, while they are currently making wild profits.


Mooch, no offense but how is this different from basically every software company, manufacturing company, restaurant, movie, song, book, and any other product that basically isn't a knitted hat made by some old retired lady at a church fundraiser event?

Maybe at my "slightly matured age" I see the other side of that coin where there are a small number of people with a specific skill set that are demanding a wage increase (and let's not get into who is really driving this battle: the union who is *also* taking money away from the "creators" of the product) and without this job would have *no* comparable career or salary.

Look, I want football as much as the next guy but I think things have gotten a little out of hand with the players demanding a specific amount of the profits. Give me an example of any other industry that allows their employees to do that and essentially not get replaced ASAP. I realize the "replacement employees" for a stamping job at an auto parts manufacturer (not to disrespect the job as that is harder work than I do) doesn't equate to elite football players and their replacements, but that same stamper can go get a comparable wage job down the street. Your average NFL player probably can't get a job over $40,000 a year, a significant decrease from the rookie league minimum at $325,000. (Veterans make more than this at a minimum level.)

Anyway, I hope this ends soon. I just don't think this is all (or really even a majority) on the owners. :-o
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Re: The CBA Thread

Postby portisfan24 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:44 am

The argument that the players deserve X% of the revenue because of their "highly unique skill set" never held much weight in my books. There are far fewer people who are able to and want to own an NFL franchise. Sure the players need to be well compensated for risking injury, but the owners could potentially lose millions upon millions in revenue. Unlikely with the popularity of the NFL, but when you have guys buying teams for 800 million dollars, I'd say they get to call the shots.
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Re: The CBA Thread

Postby Ek » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:00 pm

I'm optimistic that something will get done by August at the latest...both sides just have too much to loose. Of course, up until that point, neither side has anything to loose at all - the players don't like training camp and the owners don't make much money from it...so I think we'll see more or less the same kind of posturing we've seen until this point. My thoughts on some of the substantive issues...

- I actually really don't have a strong opinion about the 18-game season, except that it is only fair that salaries should be adjusted up accordingly if it goes down (especially for pre-existing contracts). Two extra games doesn't get me that excited as a fan or fantasy player, but I also don't buy that the injury problem will become drastically worse.

- I'd love to see an automatic rookie scale created (like the NBA has)...rookies not signing with the team that drafted them before camp just shouldn't happen.

- I wouldn't mind seeing the salary cap eliminated or pushed high enough that it will only affect a handful of teams. We didn't have one this year and teams aren't going bankrupt, nor did it seem like competitive balance was any worse than it had been in previous years recently. I know the lack of salary cap has been bad for baseball, but I think both the nature of football itself and the nature of the NFL would prevent a similar situation from occurring.
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Re: The CBA Thread

Postby moochman » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:38 pm

biju wrote:Snipped:

moochman wrote:I have never heard of a business model that insists it must take money away from the people (players) who create the product, while they are currently making wild profits.


Mooch, no offense but how is this different from basically every software company, manufacturing company, restaurant, movie, song, book, and any other product that basically isn't a knitted hat made by some old retired lady at a church fundraiser event?

Maybe at my "slightly matured age" I see the other side of that coin where there are a small number of people with a specific skill set that are demanding a wage increase (and let's not get into who is really driving this battle: the union who is *also* taking money away from the "creators" of the product) and without this job would have *no* comparable career or salary.

Look, I want football as much as the next guy but I think things have gotten a little out of hand with the players demanding a specific amount of the profits. Give me an example of any other industry that allows their employees to do that and essentially not get replaced ASAP. I realize the "replacement employees" for a stamping job at an auto parts manufacturer (not to disrespect the job as that is harder work than I do) doesn't equate to elite football players and their replacements, but that same stamper can go get a comparable wage job down the street. Your average NFL player probably can't get a job over $40,000 a year, a significant decrease from the rookie league minimum at $325,000. (Veterans make more than this at a minimum level.)

Anyway, I hope this ends soon. I just don't think this is all (or really even a majority) on the owners. :-o


No offense ever taken, nor meant. Just open dialog. I tend to find myself on the minority side of sport labor arguements. I simply cannot side with the owners, who buy into an exclusive club that prints money. No owner in the modern history of the league lose money. Case in point is a miserable franchise like the Lions, no pressure for owner to put on competitive team. Making millions yearly, he finally took a huge loss by building a new stadium. And was immediately rewarded with increased value of franchise. So these uber wealthey businessmen trying to somehow complain that they are not getting enough money is absurd. The players are the product and taking money away from them only helps weaken the product. Face it, the game isn't as good as it once as league stamps its ultra-conservative face on the game. Taking money out of players pockets is just another way the rich get richer and the product gets weaker. And know this, over time the money you believe will shift from rookies to vets will simply end up in owners pockets. Vets will lose much more money over time for losing the leverage of rookie contracts.

BTW, its not that different from other business models, that is my point. The coporate shift has lessened the quality of the product in too many cases. Don't want the game to slowly deteriorate into some slow moving, over-orchestrated, version of the NBA. (which has in the course of many of our watching lifetimes gone from Fan-tastic! to disinteresting array of missed shots, bad D, and boring dunks.
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Re: The CBA Thread

Postby u_fig_eater » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:49 pm

Goodell is so inept that he couldn't even get the stadium ready for the Super Bowl. I have no faith in his ability to manage the league whatsoever.

Oh, and the whole thing about him forfeiting his $10 million salary if they do a lockout. What a backfire. Instead of giving him the moral high ground, he drew attention to his colossal salary. He's totally out of touch.
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Re: The CBA Thread

Postby Ek » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Speaking of, TMQ on ESPN made an interesting point to consider whenever the owners say that they can't afford to pay players more (or, for that matter, that they need to raise the prices of tickets, parking, concessions, merchandise, etc.):

TMQ's Annual NFL Pinafore Count: No organization on Earth -- not the UAW, not the Pentagon -- is more top-heavy than the NFL. Consider that the Denver Broncos have an executive vice president of football operations (John Elway), a president and a general manager. That's two people to supervise one person!

In negotiations with the NFLPA, the league claims it needs givebacks owing to ponderous costs. How about fewer front-office types with grandiose titles and redundant responsibilities? Here, gleaned from the NFL's official Record and Fact Book, is TMQ's annual Super Bowl look at NFL overstaffing -- organizational charts that would make the HMS Pinafore seem a lean, well-run ship.

• The Baltimore Ravens have a president, an executive vice president, a senior vice president, 13 regular vice presidents, a senior director and 12 regular directors. That's 29 people with senior titles -- roughly one high-ranking executive for each two players on the roster. And the trainer isn't just the trainer or the certified trainer (all sports organizations need a trainer with certification), he's the vice president of medical services/head certified athletic trainer.

• The Buffalo Bills, despite having a president, a CEO, a general manager, four senior vice presidents, six vice presidents, one executive director and six regular directors, nevertheless still require someone with the title "consultant." What does the consultant consult on -- figuring out what all the people with senior titles should do? Plus, the Bills have a vice president of government relations -- a lobbyist.

• The Houston Texans have a chairman and CEO, two vice chairmen, a general manager, a president, two senior vice presidents, a CFO, a CAO, four regular vice presidents, 17 directors, a vice president for finance (despite having a CFO) and a director of accounting (despite having a CFO and a vice president for finance). And that's before all the people on the football staff.

• The Jacksonville Jaguars have a senior vice president of football operations and an executive director of football operations.

• The Miami Dolphins have a chairman of the board/managing general partner, a CEO, an executive vice president of football operations, a senior vice president of football operations, a general manager, a chief administrative officer, seven other senior vice presidents, four senior directors, seven regular directors and a senior director of cheerleaders and entertainment.

• The New England Patriots has a chairman & CEO, a president, a CAO, a COO, a publisher, a director of football and a "senior football advisor."

• The New York Jets have a chairman & CEO, three executive vice presidents, a general manager, a CFO, six regular vice presidents, nine senior directors and seven regular directors. The Jets have a director of football administration and a manager of football administration.

• The Tennessee Titans have the league's most inflated title -- Bud Adams is owner/chairman of the board/CEO/president. Ferdinand the III could only have dreamed of such a title. Well, maybe Ferdinand III was satisfied with his formal title: "By the grace of God elected Holy Roman Emperor, forever August, King of Germany, King of Hungary, Bohemia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slavonia, Rama, Serbia, Galicia, Lodomeria, Cumania and Bulgaria, Archduke of Austria, Duke of Burgundy, Brabant, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Margrave of Moravia, Duke of Luxemburg, of the Higher and Lower Silesia, of Wurtemberg and Teck, Prince of Swabia, Count of Habsburg, Tyrol, Kyburg and Goritia, Marquess of the Holy Roman Empire, Burgovia, the Higher and Lower Lusace, Lord of the Marquisate of Slavonia, of Port Naon and Salines."

• The Arizona Cardinals have an owner, a president, a general manager, a COO, a CFO, seven vice presidents, a director of football administration, a senior director of ticketing, a senior director of ticket sales, a director of player personnel and a director of pro personnel. What's the difference between "player personnel" and "pro personnel"?

• The Carolina Panthers, in addition to an owner/founder, have a president, a general manager, a general counsel, a CFO, a controller, 13 directors, two executive producers and a "director of cheerleaders and mascots." Ouch! Team management thinks the cheerleaders, who rehearse and work out to the point of exhaustion, are in the same category as the guy who wears the ill-fitting felt suit.

• In addition to the league's second-most inflated title -- owner/president/general manager -- the Dallas Cowboys have an executive vice president of brand management.

• The Green Bay Packers have a president and CEO, an executive vice president/general manager/director of football operations, a vice president of football administration, six other vice presidents, 12 directors, three coordinators and a coaching administrator. Given that the Packers are the NFL's sole publicly owned franchise, it appears that stockholders have not pressured for a lean front office.

• The New Orleans Saints have two people with the title owner. The San Francisco 49ers also have two people with the title owner. The Minnesota Vikings have three people with the title owner.

• The New York Giants have a president/CEO, a chairman/executive vice president (how is it possible to be a chairman, meaning in charge, and simultaneously a vice president, meaning an assistant to the person in charge?), a senior vice president/general manager, 10 other vice presidents and 11 directors, including a director of research and development. A director of R&D? Apparently the GPS-guided football project is not just a rumor.

• The Seattle Seahawks have a chairman, a CEO, a COO, a CFO and a general manager, plus 14 vice presidents and directors.

• The Tampa Bay Buccaneers have three people with the title "co-chairman," all reporting to the president, plus 14 directors and 12 managers.

This year's most top-heavy NFL bureaucracy is that of the Cleveland Browns. In addition to having an owner, a president, a general manager, an executive vice president, a senior adviser, an executive adviser (maybe they advise each other?), a lawyer with the title general counsel & special counsel, three senior vice presidents, seven regular vice presidents, a controller and a stunning 20 directors, Cleveland has both a vice president of operations and a director of operations.

Bear in mind, although the NFL as a whole is a multibillion-dollar operation, individual franchises average a little less than $250 million in annual revenue. That's a lot to you and me but not huge by business standards -- about the same as the 2011 syndication fees for "Two and a Half Men."

If Wal-Mart Stores Inc. had the same ratio of revenue to executives as the Browns, Wal-Mart would have 1,632 presidents, 4,896 senior vice presidents, 11,424 regular vice presidents and 32,640 directors."


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Re: The CBA Thread

Postby stomperrob » Mon Feb 14, 2011 12:15 pm

Both sides want more & more money, and they don't care that the average fan can no longer afford to go to games - as long as enough rich folks go to the game and fill the seats, there's no reason to care about the average fan (who's now forced to watch the games on TV - which of course ups the TV revenue and puts more money in the pot!).
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