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Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning

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Re: Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning

Postby mattb47 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 12:45 am

If we're talking pure physical tools for those WRs then I would say Eli has the advantage there because none of Manning's targets have EVER been the most athletic or anything like that. If Manning's passes weren't perfect do you think guys like Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne would have had as prolific careers as they did? How many times did you see Harrison or Wayne catch a short pass, break a tackle or two and take it the rest of the way? Not many...probably not even as many times as the Giants receivers (mainly Nicks and Cruz) did this season alone. Those guys were rock solid receivers, but nothing out of this world talent wise. I don't think Harrison or Wayne would have been much more than a shell of what they were in Indy on most other teams in the NFL.

Sorry, I think you're kidding yourself if you think that those guys have overwhelming talent by any means...they were good route runners and have very good hands but they were never going to win battles all on their own. Did you ever see the games when teams decided to focus on one of those guys? It effectively took him out of the game because they didn't have the physical tools to break away, but Manning could find other guys so it wouldn't matter so much...and since he could do that teams couldn't focus on any one of them really.
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Re: Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning

Postby moochman » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:31 pm

C'Mon Matt, you cannot be serious. I do love the irony of you assertion that Peyton is the better QB because his WRs lacked tackle breaking strength and get-a-way speed. You do realize that Eli won his second title and MVP while throwing passes to 8 different receivers, used his tackle busting and speedy, uber physically gifted WRs Nicks and Cruz so well that they averaged 10.9 and 6.3 yds per catch, respectively?
Cruz and Nicks have a long long way to go before they can be mentioned in the same league as Harrison, or even Wayne.
The more you try to marginalize the surrounding cast of Peyton, the more I am inclined to think Eli is the better QB.
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Re: Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning

Postby mattb47 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:11 pm

moochman wrote:C'Mon Matt, you cannot be serious. I do love the irony of you assertion that Peyton is the better QB because his WRs lacked tackle breaking strength and get-a-way speed. You do realize that Eli won his second title and MVP while throwing passes to 8 different receivers, used his tackle busting and speedy, uber physically gifted WRs Nicks and Cruz so well that they averaged 10.9 and 6.3 yds per catch, respectively?
Cruz and Nicks have a long long way to go before they can be mentioned in the same league as Harrison, or even Wayne.
The more you try to marginalize the surrounding cast of Peyton, the more I am inclined to think Eli is the better QB.


Think what you want...I've heard the trio of Nicks, Cruz, and Manningham to be considered one of the most (and I've even heard the single most) talented WR trio in the NFL overall. Not saying I necessarily agree to that extent but I think you're confusing talent and physical tools with production in this comparison. Yes, Harrison and Wayne have the production victory locked down, but from a pure talent and physical ability standpoint? These guys have more potential. Like I said before, how many times have you EVER seen Harrison or Wayne take those short passes that I've seen both Nicks and Cruz do this year and break some tackles to take it to the house? I sure can't think of any.

This is not an argument about Peyton being better than Eli because of his receivers, we're not even discussing those two as a comparison for the sake of this thread. But I think people GROSSLY overestimate the talent of the receivers and weapons that Peyton has had around him over the years. Give him a legit #1 threat at WR and see the kinds of numbers he can/will put up...that's why I kinda hope we see him in Arizona as Fitz would be a receiving god with Manning throwing him the ball.
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Re: Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning

Postby moochman » Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:40 pm

On the contrary, Matt, you may be confusing a lack of break away plays with talent. Precision route running and ability to catch in close quarters is a much more valualbe talent than being fast and big. (won't even mention the abysmal tackling in the NFL today as players try to hit hard, dislodge the football rather than tackle receivers-oops, guess I will mention it :-b ) As for the Giants WRs being the most talented trio in the league today, debatable, but to the victor go the spoils, part of which is hyperbole. They may not even be the best WRs in their own division.
And I was saying that Eli is a better QB than big bro, you said no and went on to suggest that Peyton's WRs were no where near as good as Eli's, so he had to be a much better QB. Who were the HOFers on Eli's first Super Bowl win? Amani Toomer and Plaxico Burress? Stellar (sarcasm)
Time will tell whether Cruz and Nicks are as good as Wayne and Harrison were. But Wayne and Harrison were not just a product of Peyton's talent.
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Re: Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning

Postby mattb47 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:00 am

Of course they weren't completely products of Peyton...but I really don't believe they would have been anywhere near the successful receivers they have been on most other teams in the NFL. People have always talked about Manning like he's consistently had these offenses just stock full of incredible talent and I think that idea has a whole lot more to do with the way he elevates those around him than him actually having incredibly talented offensive weapons around him. I mean he made guys like Brandon Stokely to be productive receivers who have since gone elsewhere and been basically non-factors as they bounce from team to team.

I think it's going to just be a difference of opinion here mooch, I don't think those guys are quite as talented as you seem to think they are/were and I doubt we're going to change each other's minds.
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Re: Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning

Postby moochman » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:10 pm

True, Matt, we won't be changing eachother's minds anytime soon. I would like you to consider that perhaps Peyton wouldn't have been nearly the QB he is were he not in Indy at the time or Faulk, Edge, Harrison and Wayne. Hey, never meant to say or imply that Peyton isn't a great QB, and like any great QB his WRs are the better for it. Just saying the same can be said of brother Eli, who not only makes his receivers better ( and only time will tell the quality of those WRs) but who also plays better in big games.
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Re: Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning

Postby dgan » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:46 pm

Peyton vs. Eli? Really? I'm not going to pull all the stats - we're all fantasy players here, so I'm pretty sure everyone knows the ballpark figures already. Just consider:

10+ win seasons
Defensive rankings of those teams
Career Win%
Career Completion%
Career TD/INT ratio
Career QB Rating
Career yardage/season

Yes, Eli has had two great playoff runs - frankly has played the games of his life in those situations. But really? You're going to disregard their career numbers because of 6 postseason games? Keep in mind Eli just played against the worst defenses in playoff history.

To me, this is silly. Yes, I think Eli is an even-keeled guy and remains calm in big games where Peyton's intensity has gotten the best of him. But I also believe that, as the Giants just proved, defenses still win championships (although you no longer have be 'dominant', but simply 'good enough'). I don't even know how this discussion is taking place. Oh..yes I do..because of Manningham and Tyree. If those two balls are incomplete, Eli is a nobody.
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Re: Tom Brady vs. Peyton Manning

Postby moochman » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:36 pm

dgan wrote:Peyton vs. Eli? Really? I'm not going to pull all the stats - we're all fantasy players here, so I'm pretty sure everyone knows the ballpark figures already. Just consider:

10+ win seasons
Defensive rankings of those teams
Career Win%
Career Completion%
Career TD/INT ratio
Career QB Rating
Career yardage/season

Yes, Eli has had two great playoff runs - frankly has played the games of his life in those situations. But really? You're going to disregard their career numbers because of 6 postseason games? Keep in mind Eli just played against the worst defenses in playoff history.

To me, this is silly. Yes, I think Eli is an even-keeled guy and remains calm in big games where Peyton's intensity has gotten the best of him. But I also believe that, as the Giants just proved, defenses still win championships (although you no longer have be 'dominant', but simply 'good enough'). I don't even know how this discussion is taking place. Oh..yes I do..because of Manningham and Tyree. If those two balls are incomplete, Eli is a nobody.


I'm sorry, but who did the Eli led Giants beat to win their two titles? Umm. that would be an undefeated team of the ages, a 13-3 Cowgirl team, then to Lambeau field for a conferecne title game prior to beating the undefeated Pats. This year they travelled again to Lambeau to beat the top rated Packers, then to the coast to beat the second rated Niners team. Seems like Eli beat the best teams to win his titles, twice is not a fluke.
Peyton's Colts beat KC, Balt and then Patriot team hamstrung by a change in the way rules were enforced, not allowing the cheaters to clutch and grab recievers. The Bears were led by Lovie Smith and Sexy Rexy Grossman at QB. Wow, no idea how the colts could have ever won that one. Don't let raw statistcis fool you, they are as much a product of a system as a QB.
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