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Postby Shatner8 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:35 pm

Its not about how they do at their other positions. Most of the TD's he scored were when he was playing RB, not returning punts.
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Postby VHawk15 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:35 pm

You are acting as though TD's are the most important factor in deciding if someone is Pro Bowl-worthy. Sure, TD's mean alot but not if you don't have hardly any yards. For instance, goalline RB's get a good number of TD's but that doesn't mean they are one of the top backs and should be in the Pro Bowl. And since Westbrook is half RB/half KR, he's obviously going to get more chances to score.

And if I was picking a team, I would definitely choose Dante Hall to be my kick returner. No contest.
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Postby eaglesrule » Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:40 pm

i knwo what you guys are saying, so I concede.

But let me clarify a poitn then. Westbrook has combined, about 900 yards and 14 td's, he will surely break a thousand combined yards from scrimmage, so iot isn;t like he would even be underserving on the face of it as a back, but whatever.

And yes if I was just pickign a kick returner of course it would eb dante hall. But I was talking in terms of overall value. If the draft were run, who gets picked first, hall or westbrook. I understand the poitional differences, I was jsut making a case that this is a special scenario and given the possibility to give an improtant back who has scored that many td's some acknoweldgement, I don;t think ti si that unreasoanble. When you considetr that it isn't even really dante hall he would be taking the spot from, but azumah, and It hink it becomes more reasonable.
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Postby VHawk15 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:49 pm

To get a spot as a KR in the Pro Bowl, Westbrook would have to be the best kick returner in the NFC. I realize that he wouldn't be taking a spot from Hall, but I was mentioned Dante because you said that Westbrook was the "most valuable kick returner in the whole league." But instead of continuing to prove my point by myself, I'll let the stats do the talking.

Jerry Azumah- 971 kick return yards, 2 TD's
Brian Westbrook- 487 kick return yards, 0 TD's
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Postby eaglesrule » Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:56 pm

i meant that quote in more of a less literal, somewhat tongue in cheek. Meaning that he started out as a kick returner and became something much more valuable than that. So if there was a draft right now of the league, would dante hall go before westbrook? no, that was more of my point. obvisouly as a kcik returner hall is better, no question. But if you have an nfl team and you have only one spot to use and you can have either one, you would mosty likely take westbrook. at least I would.

And we are still left with the problem of alex bannister making it and westbrook not. westbrook retunrs kicks and covers them ANd plays a major part of the offense. I guess what I am saying is that for someone who is sucha threat in the different pahses of the game, a less slavish look at the narrow definition of the positions is in order. Westbrook has been such a force and qualifies as a kr. Given that, and given in the absoloute sense, he is better than azuma and alex bannsiter, and has keyed a huge eagles team, he should make it. I am not saying you guys are wrong, I just think this deserves another way of looking at it.

also, kr in the probowl means pR or kr. so basically it is more like 971 and 2 tds to 702 and one td. still in azumah's favor, but not so much, considering other factors, namely a lot of people could get those yards on chciago, you knwo since they get kicked off to a lot.
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Postby VHawk15 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:06 pm

Yes, I realize how you are trying to twist the question. But this isn't a MVP award or a "Who would you pick first in a draft?" award, this is a KR nomination for the Pro Bowl. So Westbrook might be valuable to his team, but he's not a snub.
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Postby eaglesrule » Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:07 pm

fair enough. we still have to address bannister...
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Postby VHawk15 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:15 pm

eaglesrule wrote:fair enough. we still have to address bannister...


Alex Bannister isn't a return man, thus it is unfair to compare him to Westbrook. But being a Seahawk fan, I can tell you that Bannister is a very solid player and a good tackler. And even if you wanted to put another returner in the "special teamer" slot, you wouldn't put Westbrook. He isn't even a top 5 returner in the NFC.
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Postby eaglesrule » Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:26 pm

no, but he did make it under the vague auspices of "special teams", so the comparison to westbrook is apt, as westbrook is also a good special teams player and was denied a spot because of him.

sure he is, he is a top three punt returner, whom are also eligiable. and a huge on special teams coverage units. saved a td on monday night.

I would add, that if someone who plays on kick return and kick coverage teams doesn't qualify someone for conisderation as a "special teamer" I don't know what would. But I digress, I made my point, as have others.
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Postby VHawk15 » Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:30 pm

eaglesrule wrote:no, but he did make it under the vague auspices of "special teams", so the comparison to westbrook is apt, as westbrook is also a good special teams player and was denied a spot because of him.

sure he is, he is a top three punt returner, whom are also eligiable. and a huge on special teams coverage units. saved a td on monday night.


The special teamer spot is usually given to players who are on the tacklers on special teams. So Bannister didn't deny Westbrook a spot, Azurah did. And I've already shown you the stats, Azurah is a much better returner. You need to go to NFL.com and look at some more stats, because Westbrook is clearly not a top 3 KR right now.
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