Rumor: Denver wants Dillon - Fantasy Football Cafe 2014 Fantasy Football Cafe


Return to Football Talk

Rumor: Denver wants Dillon

Moderator: Football Moderators

Postby terpfan » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:22 am

thank you vhawk... thats a common misconception people have about these denver rbs. this "system back" theory travels like in the "telephone game", getting distorted as it goes. :-B

1600 is a little different from 1100. not to mention portis had about 200 more receiving yards. really, gary did just enough to prolong the system theory. ;-D
terpfan
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe MusketeerSweet 16 ChampionPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 11116
Joined: 30 May 2002
Home Cafe: Football

Postby KingGhidra » Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:38 am

Free Bagel wrote:
KingGhidra wrote:
Canadian_Cheesehead wrote:
Sakrafyce wrote:With the latest rumors, i've seen him going anywhere from 1.12-2.05. ;-D


You've seen Dillon going in the 1st round? And no later than mid 2nd? Please, tell me what leagues these are. I'd like to become a member.


People buy into that so called Denver RB system.

Players make the system, not vice versa...


While that may hold some merit in certain cases, in this case it's difficult to back. You could say that it's a combination of the two, but to say the players make the system when they've got a guy like Olandis Gary going for 1300+ yards in that system, then going to a different one and not being able to crack 600 yards, it deeply hurts that theory.


Obviously the players around you make a difference. Does Denver have a RB friendly offense? Hell yes. Does it make nobodies into stars? Absolutely not.

King Ghidra's in-depth analysis of the so called Denver RB system.

Exhibit A: Terrell Davis

First off, NO ONE and I mean NO ONE rushes for 2000 yards unless they a bonafide top shelf star. I don't care how great of a line you have and how fantastic your WRs are at blocking, Davis was a star. Davis made the Denver running game. Obviously being on a good team with stars makes his accomplishment of 2000 yards "easier" (actually it doesn't make it easier, just possible ;-) ), but this guy was top notch. Anyone who would even suggest that Davis was only average and Denver made him look good must not know football.

Exhibit B: Olandis Gary

4th round draft pick out of Georgia (SEC has been fantastic in turning out RB talent the last 5+ years) Gary stepped in for Davis after he went down with an ACL and MCL injury. He totalled 1200 yards in 12 games. Damn good. Many people want to point to the fact that once he left Denver, he couldn't produce anymore. Those people think it helps prove why the Denver RB system is so good. Why are they most likely wrong?

2000 season: ACL injury
2001 season: broken leg

Gee, I wonder if that might have had ANYTHING to do with him not being as good as his rookie year in 1999. Yes, there have been people to come back from ACL injuries, but many times they are never the same.

Final analysis on Gary: Above average talent who excelled in a RB friendly system. Devastating leg injuries kept him from returning to top form.

Exhibit C: Mike Anderson

Doesn't add to the argument that Denver makes the RB and not vice versa. He had 1 shot at starting. In 2000 he took over for the injured TD & Gary. In 2001 he started the last 7 games after TD then Gary went down with injuries. In 2002 Portis won the job outright in week 3. We'll never REALLY know how good he could've been in 2001 and even if he went to another team for 2004, he's 30 years old. Not exactly a spring chicken anymore.

Exhibit D: 2002 season.

If the Denver RB system was so good, why couldn't Gary or Anderson win the job before Portis had a chance? A healthy Gary probably would've been able to win the job. Shanahan and the coaching staff realized Gary wasn't the same and let him go after 2002. Didn't take the Bills long to figure it out either which is why they let him go to Detroit. Apparently Anderson is just old despite not having a lot of NFL mileage on him. Of course we'll never know and because of that, he doesn't lend any crediblity to the argument that Denver makes the RB.

Exhibit E: Mike Cloud

Mike Cloud? But he played for the Chiefs and Patriots!
I think most people here would agree that KC has had one of the most dominating offensive lines the last 3 seasons. Many of the same people who think Denver makes the RB think that KC makes the RB also. After Priest went down at the end of the 2002 season.

Mike Cloud's stats:
Week 16 vs San Diego
16 carries for 19 yards with a very William Greenesque 1.6 YPC average.

Week 17 @ Oakland
9 carries for 23 yards with a 2.6 YPC average.

I guess it DOES matter who you hand the ball off to.

Conclusion

The only thing Denver has produced consistently is injured RBs. Portis should be glad to be out of there. ;-)

It seems to me that over the last 8 seasons, Shanahan and crew have done a wonderful job at spotting RB talent. They must have some of the best scouts in the business. I think it's far more likely that they made great judgement calls on late round RB picks than some system that magically makes RBs good for 1 or 2 years. If you aren't a good player, you aren't gonna produce no matter how good the system is around you. Does anyone think Troy Hambrick would rush for 1500 yards if he was Denver's starter? Bueller? Bueller?
Denver has been blessed with, at minimum, above average RB talent on teams that were above average on offense. A good offensive system helped them achieve the top of their potential, but all of them were talented. Sticking any bum into Denver will NOT produce the same results as in previous years.
KingGhidra
General Manager
General Manager

Cafe RankerMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 4303
Joined: 3 Sep 2003
Home Cafe: Football

Postby Canacuna » Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:45 am

I would quote what KingGhidra and others have posted on this topic, but it would take up too much space. KG's remarkably intellegent, elegantly worded, informative, insightful, and all of those other neat positive describers, post was just too awesome to even be called awesome - someone will have to think of a new word to describe such awesomeness, or something. Anyway...

Image
'CUNA-MANIA IS RUNNING WILD!
"You will be a king here, instead of a peasant at the Cafe."
Canacuna
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

User avatar
Cafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeWeb Supporter
Posts: 5062
Joined: 7 Dec 2003
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Home sweet home.

Postby terpfan » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:14 pm

Canacuna wrote:I would quote what KingGhidra and others have posted on this topic, but it would take up too much space. KG's remarkably intellegent, elegantly worded, informative, insightful, and all of those other neat positive describers, post was just too awesome to even be called awesome - someone will have to think of a new word to describe such awesomeness, or something. Anyway...

Image

i concur! ;-D ;-D

glad hes on my side. :-)
terpfan
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertCafe WriterCafe RankerMock(ing) DrafterEagle EyeCafe MusketeerSweet 16 ChampionPick 3 Weekly Winner
Posts: 11116
Joined: 30 May 2002
Home Cafe: Football

Postby M_Zimm_ffc » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:19 pm

Canacuna wrote:I would quote what KingGhidra and others have posted on this topic, but it would take up too much space. KG's remarkably intellegent, elegantly worded, informative, insightful, and all of those other neat positive describers, post was just too awesome to even be called awesome - someone will have to think of a new word to describe such awesomeness, or something. Anyway...

Image

I would have to agree, King should be a lawyer. ;-D He doesn't leave anywhere to disagree.
M_Zimm_ffc
Hall of Fame Hero
Hall of Fame Hero

Cafe RankerGraphics ExpertMock(ing) DrafterEagle Eye
Posts: 5603
Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Home Cafe: Football

Postby Free Bagel » Sat Mar 13, 2004 12:35 pm

KingGhidra wrote:If the Denver RB system was so good, why couldn't Gary or Anderson win the job before Portis had a chance?


I don't see how this helps your arguement at all....So you're saying Portis isn't as good as a healthy Gary?

If anything, the fact that they couldn't win the job back shows that they weren't as good as their numbers suggested. If they were such great talents, surely the Broncos would've tried to trade one of them when they had 2 or 3 deep at the position.

The thing with Gary is that it's not even that he couldn't run well with the lack of talent around him, but that he couldn't even win the starting gig on the DETROIT LIONS. Sure, maybe it had something to do with his leg injuries.....maybe. It's doubtful that teams would've even bothered with him though were his leg injuries as career wrecking as you described.

With Anderson, hey you said it yourself. The guy went for 1500 yards as a rookie, but wasn't even good enough to win the starting job ever again. Maybe HE churned out 1500 yards and was a great back, rather than the system aiding him to 1500, but if he was so great you'd think he would retain the job. It's not often you see a 1500 yard rusher benched the next season.
Image
Free Bagel
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertMock(ing) DrafterCafe Musketeer
Posts: 8495
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Titletown, FL

Postby KingGhidra » Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:27 pm

Free Bagel wrote:
KingGhidra wrote:If the Denver RB system was so good, why couldn't Gary or Anderson win the job before Portis had a chance?


I don't see how this helps your arguement at all....So you're saying Portis isn't as good as a healthy Gary?

I know that someone would mention this. My contention is that only good RBs excel on a team, Denver or otherwise. If anyone could be plugged into the backfield and excel, why wasn't Gary able to like before? Because he wasn't the same RB he was in 1999 because of an ACL tear and broken leg.

The thing with Gary is that it's not even that he couldn't run well with the lack of talent around him, but that he couldn't even win the starting gig on the DETROIT LIONS. Sure, maybe it had something to do with his leg injuries.....maybe. It's doubtful that teams would've even bothered with him though were his leg injuries as career wrecking as you described.


Emphasis mine. Are you telling me with a straight face that ACL injuries aren't career threatening? They ended TD's and Jamal Anderson's career. Two years after the fact Edge is just starting to return to form. Sylvester Morris hasn't even seen the playing field since his ACL injury. There's no maybe about it. Jamal Lewis is the only guy I can think of off the top of my head that seems to have no effects 2 years removed from an ACL injury. The fact that you or anyone else here can probably name 10 guys without batting an eyelash who ARE affected speaks for itself.

As far as "teams won't bother with a guy [...]" you don't even have to look past your home franchise. Miami signed McIntosh to a $22.5M deal and he couldn't even pass a physical. Oops.

Buffalo took a chance and signed Gary to a cheap two year deal. Gary was probably good enough to pass a physical and okay in a workout, but once he got to practice and team drills it was probably fairly obvious he wasn't the guy he was in 1999. He never even made it to the season with Buffalo once they saw Detroit had a need for some bodies at the position.

With Anderson, hey you said it yourself. The guy went for 1500 yards as a rookie, but wasn't even good enough to win the starting job ever again. Maybe HE churned out 1500 yards and was a great back, rather than the system aiding him to 1500, but if he was so great you'd think he would retain the job. It's not often you see a 1500 yard rusher benched the next season.


No it's not often, unless the guy you are benched for is Terrell Davis. My main point is that Anderson doesn't support the argument since he was never given a full opportunity to reclaim the starting job. Shanahan gave TD his shot to reclaim the starting job, then turned it over to Gary after TD was injured. Mike Anderson never went to another team and sucked and he never had an entire year to suck for the Broncos, therefore there is no evidence to suggest that he was a fluke or only excelled because of the "Denver system". Even if he DID support the argument, he would be only 1 out of 4 RBs since 1995 that you could consider a "fluke". One RB in 8 seasons doesn't make a convincing argument that Denver is a RB factory that makes nobodies into Terrell Davises.

Let me know what you really think. I asked in my original post if anyone thinks Troy Hambrick would rush for 1500 yards if he played for Denver. Do you think that?
Last edited by KingGhidra on Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
KingGhidra
General Manager
General Manager

Cafe RankerMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 4303
Joined: 3 Sep 2003
Home Cafe: Football

Postby Free Bagel » Sat Mar 13, 2004 2:39 pm

How can you say Anderson was never given a chance to reclaim his job? Wouldn't he have been put in if he were better? I understand that no one probably had a fair chance with TD returning, just because of the sentimental value and how much TD had done for the franchise. But when TD went down, you can't just say Shanahan plugged Gary in without giving Anderson a chance. Surely if he thought Anderson were better he would have played him instead.

Further, what we're looking at here, are 4 guys--TD, Gary, Anderson, Portis--who were all not highly touted out of college. Now, it happens sometimes that teams find a steal late in the draft. But to find a guy who performs better than the 10 guys taken ahead of him 4 times in a row at the same position seems more than a mere coincidence to me. Heck, Portis was the most noteworth of the four, taken as early as the 2nd round of the draft, and he catupulted into a top 3 RB. The others, taken much later, became top 10-15 RB's as rookies.

You can't honestly say that Denver just got lucky enough to find guys late in the draft (some of them uheard of), that were better than 20 other starting RB's in the NFL, four times in a row. I mean, I'm a Gator fan, Georgia is one of our biggest rivals, and even I didn't know who Olandis Gary was coming out of college.
Image
Free Bagel
Mod in Retirement
Mod in Retirement

User avatar
CafeholicFantasy ExpertMock(ing) DrafterCafe Musketeer
Posts: 8495
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Home Cafe: Football
Location: Titletown, FL

Postby KingGhidra » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:33 pm

Free Bagel wrote:How can you say Anderson was never given a chance to reclaim his job? Wouldn't he have been put in if he were better? I understand that no one probably had a fair chance with TD returning, just because of the sentimental value and how much TD had done for the franchise. But when TD went down, you can't just say Shanahan plugged Gary in without giving Anderson a chance. Surely if he thought Anderson were better he would have played him instead.



Yes I can say that, because that's what happened.

Shanahan's seems to favor the guy who did it first. You could say he subscribes to the idea that you don't lose your job because of injury. When TD was healthy, he plugged him in as the starter despite what Gary and Anderson had done the years before. When TD went down again, he plugged Gary in first because he was the guy who filled in for TD in 1999. Only after both TD and Gary were lost to injury in 2001 was Anderson named the starter.

Anderson never really had a fair shot at recovering the starting job after 2000. It seems like Shanahan didn't like him as the starting RB for whatever reason (he probably wanted someone more explosive). Even when Anderson had 95 yards on 10 carries in week 2, he still turned the team over to Portis in week 3 and never looked back.
KingGhidra
General Manager
General Manager

Cafe RankerMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 4303
Joined: 3 Sep 2003
Home Cafe: Football

Postby KingGhidra » Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:40 pm

Free Bagel wrote:You can't honestly say that Denver just got lucky enough to find guys late in the draft (some of them uheard of), that were better than 20 other starting RB's in the NFL, four times in a row. I mean, I'm a Gator fan, Georgia is one of our biggest rivals, and even I didn't know who Olandis Gary was coming out of college.


Yes I can, I keep saying it. Some organizations are just really good at some things. What honestly seems more likely to you? You can put any bum in and he suddenly becomes an elite RB if he plays for Denver or Denver is good at scouting and developing RB talent? Considering some teams are just pitiful when it comes to drafting and developing talent, some franchise has to be the exception at the other end that balances the scale out. Denver has a system that allows talented RBs to really excel, but put a below average RB in and he will still be below average.
KingGhidra
General Manager
General Manager

Cafe RankerMock(ing) Drafter
Posts: 4303
Joined: 3 Sep 2003
Home Cafe: Football

PreviousNext

Return to Football Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Forums Articles & Tips Start & Sit Sleepers Rankings Leagues


Get Ready...
The 2014 NFL season kicks off in 14:14 hours
(and 38 days)
2014 NFL Schedule


  • Fantasy Football
  • Article Submissions
  • Privacy Statement
  • Site Survey 
  • Contact