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Postby TheHeat24 » Tue Apr 27, 2004 10:00 pm

Garcia doesnt have great arm strength so i expect him to bne throwing to winslow often... But I still dont put him ahead of the top three (Gonzo, Heap, Shockey) as those guys are all proven... However with Eli there now I might be inclined to put shockey a buit lower.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Wed Apr 28, 2004 1:15 am

Hold on there, AF - I thought the Browns passing attack being weak last yr was more a result of the fact that they didnt have a consistant QB and a sive for an Oline. Its pretty hard to complete passes from your arse.
All 3 of those guys were relatively high draft choices if I remember correctly, and really were touted by many as one of the best young recieving corps coming into last season. I think looking at their production from last yr and assuming a rookie could step in and get the majority of recieving yards is a big leap of logic.

Im still more inclined to rank the TEs close to KingGhirda right now. He is as risky at this point as many of the guys after the top 4. Crumpler, McMichael, Freddy Jones, Boo Williams - all of them have as much of a chance to crack the top 5 as KW2 IMO. That being said, Winslow will go before all of them in the majority of drafts because of the hype. Is he really worth it, or is there better valule a few rds later?

BTW - I noticed a couple people mention Crumpler had better production without Vick. I want to challenge that theory. Last yr during the last 5 games when Vick came back (when ATL was essentially out of the playoofs), three straight games were against CAR, IND, and TB. Also, during that same 5 game stretch Alge had his 3rd and 5th best yardage games of the season. What am I missing? Why should I conclude that Alge is worse off when Vick plays?
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Postby AF » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:22 am

Well I guess my point was there is no reason to think that Winslow couldn't come in and put some of the best numbers on the team. None of the Browns WRs have proven they can do anything. So why couldn't Winslow come in and put up the numbers I said? There really isn't any more of a reason to believe he can't then there is reason to believe he can.
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Postby Buckychudd » Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:24 am

Cornbread Maxwell wrote:BTW - I noticed a couple people mention Crumpler had better production without Vick. I want to challenge that theory. Last yr during the last 5 games when Vick came back (when ATL was essentially out of the playoofs), three straight games were against CAR, IND, and TB. Also, during that same 5 game stretch Alge had his 3rd and 5th best yardage games of the season. What am I missing? Why should I conclude that Alge is worse off when Vick plays?


His two lowest yardage games also came when Vick was back. He started the season like a monster......he didn't keep it up. Full year 2002 he didn't perform anything like the beginning of 2003.

The thinking is that Vick would rather rush the ball than dump it off to a TE.....seems like more his style. He looks downfield, then his second thought is to run.
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:57 am

Buckychudd wrote:His two lowest yardage games also came when Vick was back. He started the season like a monster......he didn't keep it up. Full year 2002 he didn't perform anything like the beginning of 2003.

The thinking is that Vick would rather rush the ball than dump it off to a TE.....seems like more his style. He looks downfield, then his second thought is to run.


Vick also had a QB rating of 19 in one of those games, so no one really had any recieving yds that day. The other lowest output for Crumpler you eluded to was the TB game, and Id be interested in finding out how TB faired against shutting down all TEs last yr - seems to me they matched up pretty strong against them, but thats just a theory.
I guess I see a lot more of a situational drop in production than evidence to draw a conclusion that Vick and Alge dont connect. Werent they quite a sleeper duo in 2002? He did score 5 TDs that yr - and with the limited time Vick played that yr, I wonder if those Tds came in games w Vick or not. I dont have individual player game logs for that yr, so I would be interested in seeing them if someone could provide a link.

The theory about Vick choosing to run instead of dump is a solid one. He does love to run no doubt about it. Speaking of which - how long before Vick gets injured this yr? lol

If Crumpler is seen as a short yd dump off for Vick that might be ok too since that also may correlate into TD receptions. Just playing devils advocate I guess.
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Postby dpecanac » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:01 pm

Winslow will be the second best tight end next year. The Browns have garbage options and will forcefeed K2! He will put up better stats that the Shocker as the shocker has a rookie QB! K2 is better that Shockey was coming out and will put up better fantasy stats than Shockey did his rookie year. K2 will be giving Gonzo a run for his money right away!

Talented TE's can do well as a rookie- Keith Jackson (Eagles), Shockey (Giants).

Also K2 is being mentored by his father and Shockey and also had the same college experience and coaching as the Shocker.

Grab K2 and grab him high!
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Postby hayesb26 » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:07 pm

You've got to include Winslow in a preseason top 5 IMO.

1- Gonzo - No doubt here. Puts up the points.


2- Heap - More consistant than Shockey.
3- Sharpe - Still around, getting old, but must put him up here.

4- Shockey - Very inconsistent. Gets his yardage, but who cares about yards much, we need TD. Couldn't get 'em with a decent QB, he won't with Eli.
5- Winslow - Has the potential to shoot up to #2 on this list within 2 years and take over #1 from gonzo when he hits the downside of his career.
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Postby MCG321 » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:37 pm

hayesb26 wrote:You've got to include Winslow in a preseason top 5 IMO.

1- Gonzo - No doubt here. Puts up the points.


2- Heap - More consistant than Shockey.
3- Sharpe - Still around, getting old, but must put him up here.

4- Shockey - Very inconsistent. Gets his yardage, but who cares about yards much, we need TD. Couldn't get 'em with a decent QB, he won't with Eli.
5- Winslow - Has the potential to shoot up to #2 on this list within 2 years and take over #1 from gonzo when he hits the downside of his career.


That brings up an interesting point about Shockey's TDs. It seems to me that inexperienced QBs are more comfortable with their TE than other receivers, so I wouldn't be surprised if Eli looks for him first in the redzone.
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Postby dpecanac » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:47 pm

Inexperienced QB's = Better TE Fantasy #'s?

Gonzo= Trent Green
Shockey= Kerry Collins
Sharpe= Plummer
Heap= Boller (but here Heap is the only show in town!)

Young inexperienced QB's
Leftwich= Who is Jax tight end????
Boller=Heap
Ramsey= who was the Skins TE?
Grossman= did not go to D. Clark when he came in
Q. Carter= Whitten??
Delhome= Who was Carolinas TE?

Young, inexperienced QB go to the TE more is a FARCE!
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Postby MCG321 » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:50 pm

Vick's backups seemed to use Crumpler a lot. A lot of the inexperienced QBs you named don't have TEs with good hands, so obviously they won't go to them more than other players. The Jags have a washed up tight end (Brady) and he is not capable of being the focus of an offense.
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