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Postby cooleyhigh » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:29 pm

Thats fine. My point is you can make that argument against anyone. Take your standard battle in FF Talk. People use quotes and stats taken out of context etc...in order to defend their opinion. This is not a tactic used only by Moore, it is common practice.

Going back to my first post, at least this film has people thinking and discussing important issues in America which IMO makes it a great work.
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Postby Nfl Fan » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:47 pm

Michael Moore is to the left what David Duke is to the right.

Hateful. Intolerant. Bigoted.
Extremist nutjobs on the fringe.
Anybody with credibility and some sense of
decency will distance themselves from both.
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Postby Flockers » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:54 pm

I still think Bush is an idiot. Five of my cousins are in Iraq, four have died already. I come from a military family and even my "war-loving" grandfather thinks the war is bulls***. Even without the making of this movie, Bush lost my vote. This subject is very close to home for me. I plan on entering the Air Force when I turn 18 and if I go to war, I want to make sure it's for a just cause, not just so our president doesn't have to admit he was wrong. I saw the movie, and I thought it was right. Although Moore went over-the-top on many things, but all-in-all I think people should see this movie.
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Postby CC » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:03 pm

Nfl Fan wrote:Michael Moore is to the left what David Duke is to the right.

Hateful. Intolerant. Bigoted.
Extremist nutjobs on the fringe.
Anybody with credibility and some sense of
decency will distance themselves from both.


Wow, that is just about the worst comparison I've ever seen. You just compared a filmmaker who doesn't agree with your Republican views and likened him to the head of the KKK. Please think before you type.
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Postby VHawk15 » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:21 pm

Canadian_Cheesehead wrote:
Nfl Fan wrote:Michael Moore is to the left what David Duke is to the right.

Hateful. Intolerant. Bigoted.
Extremist nutjobs on the fringe.
Anybody with credibility and some sense of
decency will distance themselves from both.


Wow, that is just about the worst comparison I've ever seen. You just compared a filmmaker who doesn't agree with your Republican views and likened him to the head of the KKK. Please think before you type.


Wow. That's all I can say about that.

But I must ask you, is Roger Ebert, the best film critic ever, a liberal lunatic? Here's his review of Fehrenheit 9/11:

Roger Ebert wrote:Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" is less an expose of George W. Bush than a dramatization of what Moore sees as a failed and dangerous presidency. The charges in the film will not come as news to those who pay attention to politics, but Moore illustrates them with dramatic images and a relentless commentary track that essentially concludes Bush is incompetent, dishonest, failing in the war on terrorism, and has bad taste in friends.



Although Moore's narration ranges from outrage to sarcasm, the most devastating passage in the film speaks for itself. That's when Bush, who was reading My Pet Goat to a classroom of Florida children, is notified of the second attack on the World Trade Center, and yet lingers with the kids for almost seven minutes before finally leaving the room. His inexplicable paralysis wasn't underlined in news reports at the time, and only Moore thought to contact the teacher in that schoolroom -- who, as it turned out, had made her own video of the visit. The expression on Bush's face as he sits there is odd indeed.

Bush, here and elsewhere in the film, is characterized as a man who owes a lot to his friends, including those who helped bail him out of business ventures. Moore places particular emphasis on what he sees as a long-term friendship between the Bush family (including both presidents) and powerful Saudi Arabians. More than $1.4 billion in Saudi money has flowed into the coffers of Bush family enterprises, he says, and after 9/11 the White House helped expedite flights out of the country carrying, among others, members of the bin Laden family (which disowns its most famous member).

Moore examines the military records released by Bush to explain his disappearance from the Texas Air National Guard, and finds that the name of another pilot has been blacked out. This pilot, he learns, was Bush's close friend James R. Bath, who became Texas money manager for the billionaire bin Ladens. Another indication of the closeness of the Bushes and the Saudis: The law firm of James Baker, the secretary of State for Bush's father, was hired by the Saudis to defend them against a suit by a group of 9/11 victims and survivors, who charged that the Saudis had financed al-Qaida.

To Moore, this is more evidence that Bush has an unhealthy relationship with the Saudis, and that it may have influenced his decision to go to war against Iraq at least partially on their behalf. The war itself Moore considers unjustified (no WMDs, no Hussein-bin Laden link), and he talks with American soldiers, including amputees, who complain bitterly about Bush's proposed cuts of military salaries at the same time he was sending them into a war that they (at least, the ones Moore spoke to) hated.

Moore also shows American military personnel who are apparently enjoying the war; he has footage of soldiers who use torture techniques not in a prison but in the field, where they hood an Iraqi prisoner, call him "Ali Baba" and pose for videos while touching his genitals.

Moore brings a fresh impact to familiar material by the way he marshals his images. We are all familiar with the controversy over the 2000 election, which was settled by the U.S. Supreme Court. What I hadn't seen before was footage of the ratification of Bush's election by the U.S. Congress. An election can be debated at the request of one senator and one representative; 10 representatives rise to challenge it, but not a single senator. As Moore shows the challengers, one after another, we cannot help noting that they are eight black women, one Asian woman and one black man. They are all gaveled into silence by the chairman of the joint congressional session -- Vice President Al Gore. The urgency and futility of the scene reawakens old feelings for those who believe Bush is an illegitimate president.

"Fahrenheit 9/11" opens on a note not unlike Moore's earlier films, such as "Roger & Me" and "Bowling for Columbine." Moore, as narrator, brings humor and sarcasm to his comments, and occasionally appears onscreen in a gadfly role.


It's vintage Moore, for example, when he brings along a Marine who refused to return to Iraq; together, they confront congressmen, urging them to have their children enlist in the service. And he makes good use of candid footage, including an eerie video showing Bush practicing facial expressions before going live with his address to the nation about 9/11.

Apparently Bush and other members of his administration don't know what every TV reporter knows, that a satellite image can be live before they get the cue to start talking. That accounts for the quease-inducing footage of Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz wetting his pocket comb in his mouth before slicking back his hair. When that doesn't do it, he spits in his hand and wipes it down. If his mother is alive, I hope for his sake she doesn't see this film.

Such scenes are typical of vintage Moore, catching his subjects off guard. But his film grows steadily darker, and Moore largely disappears from it, as he focuses on people such as Lila Lipscomb, from Moore's hometown of Flint, Mich.; she reads a letter from her son, written days before he was killed in Iraq. It urges his family to work for Bush's defeat.

"Fahrenheit 9/11" is a compelling, persuasive film, at odds with the White House effort to present Bush as a strong leader. He comes across as a shallow, inarticulate man, simplistic in speech and inauthentic in manner. If the film is not quite as electrifying as Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," that may be because Moore has toned down his usual exuberance and was sobered by attacks on the factual accuracy of elements of "Columbine"; playing with larger stakes, he is more cautious here, and we get an op-ed piece, not a stand-up routine. But he remains one of the most valuable figures on the political landscape, a populist rabble-rouser, humorous and effective; the outrage and incredulity in his film are an exhilarating response to Bush's determined repetition of the same stubborn sound bites.
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The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all the people. -Noam Chomsky
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Postby Cornbread Maxwell » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:38 pm

VHawk15 wrote:
Roger Ebert wrote:Although Moore's narration ranges from outrage to sarcasm, the most devastating passage in the film speaks for itself. That's when Bush, who was reading My Pet Goat to a classroom of Florida children, is notified of the second attack on the World Trade Center, and yet lingers with the kids for almost seven minutes before finally leaving the room. His inexplicable paralysis wasn't underlined in news reports at the time, and only Moore thought to contact the teacher in that schoolroom -- who, as it turned out, had made her own video of the visit. The expression on Bush's face as he sits there is odd indeed.


Yes - devastating. I really do appreciate that the most devastating part of this entire movie is when our President showed self restraint in a situation where some would have wanted him to storm out of the room shouting useless orders.
Devastating indeed.
OBTW - the teacher who shot the film actually thought our President acted spot on and was grateful for his actions considering the situation. I wonder if that devastating opinion was put in this mockumentary too?
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Postby Carolina Culpepper » Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:49 pm

VHawk15 wrote:
Canadian_Cheesehead wrote:
Nfl Fan wrote:Michael Moore is to the left what David Duke is to the right.

Hateful. Intolerant. Bigoted.
Extremist nutjobs on the fringe.
Anybody with credibility and some sense of
decency will distance themselves from both.


Wow, that is just about the worst comparison I've ever seen. You just compared a filmmaker who doesn't agree with your Republican views and likened him to the head of the KKK. Please think before you type.


Wow. That's all I can say about that.

But I must ask you, is Roger Ebert, the best film critic ever, a liberal lunatic? Here's his review of Fehrenheit 9/11:

Roger Ebert wrote:Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" is less an expose of George W. Bush than a dramatization of what Moore sees as a failed and dangerous presidency. The charges in the film will not come as news to those who pay attention to politics, but Moore illustrates them with dramatic images and a relentless commentary track that essentially concludes Bush is incompetent, dishonest, failing in the war on terrorism, and has bad taste in friends.



Although Moore's narration ranges from outrage to sarcasm, the most devastating passage in the film speaks for itself. That's when Bush, who was reading My Pet Goat to a classroom of Florida children, is notified of the second attack on the World Trade Center, and yet lingers with the kids for almost seven minutes before finally leaving the room. His inexplicable paralysis wasn't underlined in news reports at the time, and only Moore thought to contact the teacher in that schoolroom -- who, as it turned out, had made her own video of the visit. The expression on Bush's face as he sits there is odd indeed.

Bush, here and elsewhere in the film, is characterized as a man who owes a lot to his friends, including those who helped bail him out of business ventures. Moore places particular emphasis on what he sees as a long-term friendship between the Bush family (including both presidents) and powerful Saudi Arabians. More than $1.4 billion in Saudi money has flowed into the coffers of Bush family enterprises, he says, and after 9/11 the White House helped expedite flights out of the country carrying, among others, members of the bin Laden family (which disowns its most famous member).

Moore examines the military records released by Bush to explain his disappearance from the Texas Air National Guard, and finds that the name of another pilot has been blacked out. This pilot, he learns, was Bush's close friend James R. Bath, who became Texas money manager for the billionaire bin Ladens. Another indication of the closeness of the Bushes and the Saudis: The law firm of James Baker, the secretary of State for Bush's father, was hired by the Saudis to defend them against a suit by a group of 9/11 victims and survivors, who charged that the Saudis had financed al-Qaida.

To Moore, this is more evidence that Bush has an unhealthy relationship with the Saudis, and that it may have influenced his decision to go to war against Iraq at least partially on their behalf. The war itself Moore considers unjustified (no WMDs, no Hussein-bin Laden link), and he talks with American soldiers, including amputees, who complain bitterly about Bush's proposed cuts of military salaries at the same time he was sending them into a war that they (at least, the ones Moore spoke to) hated.

Moore also shows American military personnel who are apparently enjoying the war; he has footage of soldiers who use torture techniques not in a prison but in the field, where they hood an Iraqi prisoner, call him "Ali Baba" and pose for videos while touching his genitals.

Moore brings a fresh impact to familiar material by the way he marshals his images. We are all familiar with the controversy over the 2000 election, which was settled by the U.S. Supreme Court. What I hadn't seen before was footage of the ratification of Bush's election by the U.S. Congress. An election can be debated at the request of one senator and one representative; 10 representatives rise to challenge it, but not a single senator. As Moore shows the challengers, one after another, we cannot help noting that they are eight black women, one Asian woman and one black man. They are all gaveled into silence by the chairman of the joint congressional session -- Vice President Al Gore. The urgency and futility of the scene reawakens old feelings for those who believe Bush is an illegitimate president.

"Fahrenheit 9/11" opens on a note not unlike Moore's earlier films, such as "Roger & Me" and "Bowling for Columbine." Moore, as narrator, brings humor and sarcasm to his comments, and occasionally appears onscreen in a gadfly role.


It's vintage Moore, for example, when he brings along a Marine who refused to return to Iraq; together, they confront congressmen, urging them to have their children enlist in the service. And he makes good use of candid footage, including an eerie video showing Bush practicing facial expressions before going live with his address to the nation about 9/11.

Apparently Bush and other members of his administration don't know what every TV reporter knows, that a satellite image can be live before they get the cue to start talking. That accounts for the quease-inducing footage of Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz wetting his pocket comb in his mouth before slicking back his hair. When that doesn't do it, he spits in his hand and wipes it down. If his mother is alive, I hope for his sake she doesn't see this film.

Such scenes are typical of vintage Moore, catching his subjects off guard. But his film grows steadily darker, and Moore largely disappears from it, as he focuses on people such as Lila Lipscomb, from Moore's hometown of Flint, Mich.; she reads a letter from her son, written days before he was killed in Iraq. It urges his family to work for Bush's defeat.

"Fahrenheit 9/11" is a compelling, persuasive film, at odds with the White House effort to present Bush as a strong leader. He comes across as a shallow, inarticulate man, simplistic in speech and inauthentic in manner. If the film is not quite as electrifying as Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," that may be because Moore has toned down his usual exuberance and was sobered by attacks on the factual accuracy of elements of "Columbine"; playing with larger stakes, he is more cautious here, and we get an op-ed piece, not a stand-up routine. But he remains one of the most valuable figures on the political landscape, a populist rabble-rouser, humorous and effective; the outrage and incredulity in his film are an exhilarating response to Bush's determined repetition of the same stubborn sound bites.




Let me get this straight, you're asking me to accept Michael Moore's political views because a left leaning film credit likes the movie??? Hello, I don't get my political views from movie critics. Do you think Ebert voted for Bush in 2000? Clearly not, and just as clearly he is taking his shot at Bush through Moore since it wouldn't be correct to do it on his own.

Listen, for every soldier that has given their life in Iraq let me say to the families - be proud. Be proud not for WMD, or oil, or all the other issues that the media or even Bush talks about. Be proud that because your son or daughter went to Iraq the mass graves, the genocide against the Curds, the use of WMD against their own Iraqi people, the torture chambers (where things far worse than soldiers "touching" prisoners genitals occured!) has stopped. The conservative estimate by all groups (liberal and conservative) of the tens of thousands of deaths and tortures that Saddam inflicted has stopped.

I went to Afghanistan a little over a year ago on a humanitarian mission to help feed and clothe Afghanis in Istalif (50 miles north of Kabul). I was stunned to find that contrary to what the media had told me, the majority of Afghans were very happy that the US was there. When they found out I was American (yes I told them, even though several liberal friends told me I should say I was Canadian!) many profusely thanked me for the US liberating them from the Taliban. I believe the situation is similiar in Iraq. There are those who hate the US but the average Iraqi knows that Iraq was liberated not conquered. In the last few days we have proved it by turning over the government to them. We can go on and on about WMD and oil, but in my mind the ending of the torture and killing by the tens of thousands is reason enough. Simply put, if Bush had not been elected, and this was up to the UN and Gore, the killings, tortures, genocide, would still be happening.
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Postby cooleyhigh » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:29 pm

You make a good point but this is a slippery-slope and when does it stop? Is America now obligated to declare war on every nation that violates human rights? How can you justify helping Afghans and Iraqi's but not N. Koreans etc...

I fear the good natured attempt to stabilize the world will alter worldwide opinion and create the opposite effect. When this matter was being discussed camps began to form (England + US) (France + Germany). This reminds me too much of the causes of WWI and quite honestly it scares me.
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Postby Nfl Fan » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:31 pm

Hey Carolina...
Logic defies the left.

Saddam would put men in meat grinders.
Sorta reminds you of recent beheadings.
(Oh, but there aren't terrorists in Iraq, remember?).

Sorta reminds you of Adolf Hitler.

History vindicates our involvement in WWII.
History will also vindicate the Iraq war and the war on terror.

God Bless the boys who are over there getting it done.
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Postby Nfl Fan » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:34 pm

Here's what you boys on the left don't seem to get...

It's a friggin scary world out there.
All it takes is one nut job with a nuke
in a suitcase and it's all over.

So what do you suggest...

wait?
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