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IT HAS BEGUN!!!

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Postby Slingblade » Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:05 pm

so you want to let saddam just sit there and we cant do anything about it?
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Postby Homeless » Fri Mar 21, 2003 4:36 pm

There are 3 camps at work here

The all for war and no other recourse camp
The No war unless enemy troops have landed in rhode island (maybe not even then)

And the middle ground camp

usually there are two camps, but this particular conflict generates a 3rd camp, the middle ground.
People who cant see the justification for going into iraq and calling it a war to set free the people of iraq, or saying there is some link to 9-11. Very few people seriously buy that line. Then there are guys like me, who insist that to make this war right, we must then go on to take out the leadership of countries like Nth korea and Iran etc etc. No stopping until weve cleaned out all these crazy dictators and replaced them with natively elected officials. If we take out saddam but leave other dicatators in power around the world then we will still have done a half ass job, just like we did in 1991.

If were gonna do it, lets do them ALL this time ! if not, then we have to accept that saddam poses less of a threat to the USA than nth korea...unless of course you take into account the fact he is in control of the 2nd largest oil reserves in the world !! HELLO.
The reasons seem clear to anyone who knows about world economics:

1) Oil

2) Israels security in the region, which indirectly impacts on the OIL reserves present on the area.

3) The Bush family hatred of Saddam for trying to have old man Bush killed. (this alone is enough reason in my mind to take him out, but its not politically correct to use that one)

4)The boost in Oil revenues to the Saudi economy during this conflict (they have to dramtically increase production to make up for the shortfall) and their economy is in a tight spot. this helps out nicely.

5) Economic boost to US industry as they go in to rebuild Iraq

6) Standing US military presence in THE single most important area to the US besides the USA itself.

7) Help ensure the safety of the USA post 9-11

8) Protect the Iraqi goat herds (Sarcasm)

And somewhere on the list...

Freedom for Iraqi people

Thats the truth of the matter regardless of what camp youre in.
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Postby kashikis » Mon Mar 24, 2003 8:54 am

whether or not you think you know the reason for bush's attack on iraq you have to give the govt one thing. they knew what iraq was doing just no one would believe them.

he said they had chem and bio weapons, everyone said they didnt cuz the inspectors couldnt find it. yesterday american troops found a warehouse 90 miles south of baghdad that was storing chemical weapons. this proves we were right and i never doubted it considering our intelligence is pretty good compared to most other countries.

so that proves my point in my head even if the other reasons had some to do with it which im sure they did, lik if you tried to kill my dad id go after you too but in the end they were right about the important part....(saddam lied to the UN for 12 years and he had weapons that violated the treaties (scuds he shot at us troops in kuwait) and weapons of mass destruction, ie chem weapons)
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Postby slowkidz » Mon Mar 24, 2003 9:17 am

I have to agree with ya kash...our intelligence does a very, very good job in analyzing the information they recieve. Plus, we all know that there are many reasons behind this war...But the war has started. No one has forgotten that civilians are involved, whether in the armed forces or walking the streets of Baghdad. Any POWs or surrendering forces that come to the US are treated well (food, clothes, shelter, etc...). But what about those American POWs in Iraq? Do you think they are treated humanely? Are they given the same regards that we give the Iraqi soldiers?? I don't think American Soldiers are the ones who are forgetting about civilians in this war? I don't think our Armed Forces is forgetting that there are Mothers, Fathers, Brothers and Sisters mixed in with Enemy Soldiers...But something tells me that the Iraqi Soldiers don't see it the way we do...Maybe it has something to do with the graphic display they put on over the ArabTV this weekend...
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Postby Arlo » Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:31 pm

I also thought that footage was awful. The way Iraqi prisoners of war were shown again and again on tv wasn't exactly right, either. The Red Cross is protesting about this to both sides. Unfortunately, it's doubtful they'll be listened to.
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Postby VIPER » Tue Mar 25, 2003 1:20 am

So I guess there will still be people wanting to talk things out.

I'm sorry, I have to say the time for talking was over a long

time ago. Civilty,peace,love ... all are non-existent right now.

In a perfect world we could sit down and discuss and work out

our diffrences. Sad to say........THIS IS NOT A PERFECT

WORLD!!! I really think the last thing we need in our country

right now are people demonstrating etc. when we have men

and women in harm's way. Not to mention their families that

are here hoping and praying that everything turns out allright.
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Postby KnowNothing » Fri Apr 04, 2003 1:38 pm

Article from THE ONION:

I SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO SAY THE FOLLOWING THINGS ABOUT AMERICA
By Ellen Dunst

As Americans, we have a right to question our government and its actions. However, while there is a time to criticize, there is also a time to follow in complacent silence. And that time is now.

It's one thing to question our leaders in the days leading up to a war. But it is another thing entirely to do it during a war. Once the blood of young men starts to spill, it is our duty as citizens not to challenge those responsible for spilling that blood. We must remove the boxing gloves and put on the kid gloves. That is why, in this moment of crisis, I should not be allowed to say the following things about America:

Why do we purport to be fighting in the name of liberating the Iraqi people when we have no interest in violations of human rights—as evidenced by our habit of looking the other way when they occur in China, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Syria, Burma, Libya, and countless other countries? Why, of all the brutal regimes that regularly violate human rights, do we only intervene militarily in Iraq? Because the violation of human rights is not our true interest here. We just say it is as a convenient means of manipulating world opinion and making our cause seem more just.

That is exactly the sort of thing I should not say right now.

This also is not the time to ask whether diplomacy was ever given a chance. Or why, for the last 10 years, Iraq has been our sworn archenemy, when during the 15 years preceding it we traded freely in armaments and military aircraft with the evil and despotic Saddam Hussein. This is the kind of question that, while utterly valid, should not be posed right now.

And I certainly will not point out our rapid loss of interest in the establishment of democracy in Afghanistan once our fighting in that country was over. We sure got out of that place in a hurry once it became clear that the problems were too complex to solve with cruise missiles.

That sort of remark will simply have to wait until our boys are safely back home.

Here's another question I won't ask right now: Could this entire situation have been avoided in the early 1990s had then-U.S. ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie not been given sub rosa instructions by the Bush Administration to soft-pedal a cruel dictator? Such a question would be tantamount to sedition while our country engages in bloody conflict. Just think how hurtful that would be to our military morale. I know I couldn't fight a war knowing that was the talk back home.

Is this, then, the appropriate time for me to ask if Operation Iraqi Freedom is an elaborate double-blind, sleight-of-hand misdirection ploy to con us out of inconvenient civil rights through Patriot Acts I and II? Should I wonder whether this war is an elaborate means of distracting the country while its economy bucks and lurches toward the brink of a full-blown depression? No and no.

True patriots know that a price of freedom is periodic submission to the will of our leaders—especially when the liberties granted us by the Constitution are at stake. What good is our right to free speech if our soldiers are too demoralized to defend that right, thanks to disparaging remarks made about their commander-in-chief by the Dixie Chicks?

When the Founding Fathers authored the Constitution that sets forth our nation's guiding principles, they made certain to guarantee us individual rights and freedoms. How dare we selfishly lay claim to those liberties at the very moment when our nation is in crisis, when it needs us to be our most selfless? We shame the memory of Thomas Jefferson by daring to mention Bush's outright lies about satellite photos that supposedly prove Iraq is developing nuclear weapons.

At this difficult time, President Bush needs my support. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld needs my support. General Tommy Franks needs my support. It is not my function as a citizen in a participatory democracy to question our leaders. And to exercise my constitutional right—nay, duty—to do so would be un-American.


http://www.theonion.com/onion3912/index.html
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Postby fntsyrookie » Fri Apr 04, 2003 2:50 pm

Hey Knownothing the U.S is in a lose lose situation with people like you. No matter what we do it's wrong. Let's say the U.S. does go after Syria, Libya, Saudi Arabia etc. etc. Then all of a sudden we're tyrants forcing the will of the EVIL American Zionists on the world. If we do nothing we simply don't care, because it's not in our interests. I'm sorry that Burma and China may have pretty bad human rights histories, but they don't exactly want to destroy the U.S., and aren't actively pursuing it are they? WTF? How in your mind does the U.S. ever win?

We are over there 1st and foremost to disarm a madman. Case closed. He's had 12 years to disarm and he's done nothing, but laugh at U.N. resolutions. If you don't think he has weapons he shouldn't you live in a cave. When Mr. Blix and his blind friends were over in Iraq they found missles (Al Samouds or something) that Hussein isn't supposed to have!! That right there is enough for this war. When they do find chemical weapons or God forbid he uses them what is your argument going to be?

After we overthrow his arrogant @ss the people of Iraq will be free to elect a new government and enjoy some of the stuff we take for granted over here.

I don't see what's wrong with that, especially since Hussein is in violation of numerous U.N. resolutions. If the U.N. is supposed to be the legislative branch of the world, where then is the executive branch? The enforcers? Sometimes doing the right thing is hard.
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Postby terpfan » Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:03 pm

fntsyrookie wrote:How in your mind does the U.S. ever win?


maybe we're just inherently evil... ;-7

KnowNothing wrote:How in your mind does the U.S. ever win?


here here! :-D
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Postby Guest » Fri Apr 04, 2003 4:47 pm

My point isn't that I think we should go to war with other countries instead of Iraq. My point is that we're going to war under false pretenses. What we're told just doesn't add up. We're going over to Iraq to "liberate" the people (who never asked to be liberated) when we don't care about the people of China, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Syria, Burma, Libya, and countless other countries. Meanwhile, the people of Iraq are fighting against colonialization. They aren't going to vote on a ruler. One will be assigned to them. Someone who can agree with the US, unlike Sadam (who was put into power by the US). And 12 years from now, when that "elected" official disagrees with us we'll bomb the hell out of him too.
With "people like me," the US wins when it's not killing humans. Killing our people. Killing their people. There are hundreds of civilians that have already needlessly died. Bombs have been dropped on bazaars (shops). They've been dropped on bridges and gas stations keeping the innocent from being able to leave the violence. How does that stop "terrorism"? How does that stop the "evil?" Over 50% of Iraqs population is under 15 years of age. That's who we're killing over there.

And where are those nuclear weapons? My guess is they're making there way over from the United States as we speak. They'll be found in some abanded cave somewhere. Some cave that has been surrounded by us for the last 2 weeks. That's just a guess though. You tell me where they are.
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